| The Only Game in Town | |
| by Sima Kadmon, Yediot Aharonot, August 13 | |
| (...) This week, there was an intensive debate in "The Majority Headquarters", the coalition of political parties and extra parliamentary movements which organized the giant rally at Rabin Square two months ago. The debate mainly concerned the slogan to be used in a projected new publicity campaign. Yariv Oppenheimer, general manager of Peace Now, offered a simple text "The majority decided: get out of Gaza ". But the Geneva Initiative organizers made clear that they will not take part in any campaign which does not explicitly refer to the need for negotiations with the Palestinians. | |
| The problem is far deeper than the drafting of a slogan. In everybody's view, it is vital that the withdrawal from the Gaza Strip takes place. If the withdrawal is blocked, it would be taken as a proof of the impossibility of ever evacuating settlements and ending the occupation: "If even Sharon could not do it, then no prime minister could ever do it". On the other hand, in order for the left wing camp to do such a far-reaching step as supporting a Likud government, much more than a withdrawal from Gaza is needed. It is no secret that the left is unhappy with the Sharon plan, which denies altogether the existence of a Palestinian negotiating partner. On the other hand, everybody understands that this is "the only game in town", at least for the next two years. That is the reason for the debate going on inside the left. The leaders of Peace Now and the Labour Party, and some in Yahad/Meretz, feel that the left should take the lead in supporting the Gaza Disengagements; the Geneva people, to the contrary, tend to stand aside rather then find themselves supporting Sharon . Tzali Rehsef, one of the founders of Peace Now, thinks that the left wing should lead this campaign, and be ready to cooperate with moderate elements who support disengagement, in the political centre and even in the right-wing: "Public support for the Gaza Disengagement must be mobilized, in face of the big anti demonstrations organized by the settlers - and if we don't do it, nobody will". To the contrary, Yossi Beilin is torn between his colleagues in the Israeli left and his Palestinian partners. In the last weekend, some seventy central Israeli and Palestinian activists of the Geneva Initiative held a met at the Moevenpiek Hotel on the Jordanian shore of the Dead Sea - the place where what came to be known as the Geneva Document was worked out a year ago. The conspicuous feature of the recent discussions was the Palestinians' strong reservations about the whole idea of a unilateral Israeli "disengegement". Quite a few of the Israeli initiators of Geneva support the idea of disengagement, among them [former Labour minister] Yuli Tamir, [Yahad/Meretz KM and kibbutz leader] Haim "Jumes" Oron, [maverick Likud member] Nehama Ronen and [former Labour Party leader] Amram Mitzna (who even supports Labour's entry into the government, in marked difference from his previous positions). The Palestinians, however, regard "disengagement" as a Sharon trap. As they see it, Sharon has undertaken this unilateral step out of his apprehension of Geneva becoming the dominant diplomatic initiative, and with the intention of buttressing Israeli hold over the West Bank - just as Menachem Begin gave up Sinai in 1982, in order to get a free hand for the big settlement-creation drive of the 1980's and 1990's. Further, the Palestinians regard Sharon 's move as deliberately promoting a situation of chaos and gang warfare in Gaza , in order to weaken the pragmatic elements in the Palestinian society. For these reasons, the Palestinian participants strongly condemned their Israeli colleagues for accommodating themselves to the Sharon plan instead of fighting it. At the conclusion of the debate, Israelis and Palestinians agreed upon the drafting of a new position paper, entitled "From Gaza to Geneva" - i.e., a paper setting out the possible ways of transforming the unilateral action and making of it a stage in a process leading to a comprehensive agreement. [P.S. from Adam Keller: The Geneva Initiative's own website: http://www.heskem.org.il/DisplayItem.asp?id=98 gives (in Hebrew only) an account of the meeting in which the disagreements between Israelis and Palestinians are not mentioned, and which rather concentrates on the main points needed, in the initiators' view, in order to move "from Gaza to Geneva." These points, now in the process of being elaborated into a detailed document, include: - Giving a greater role to third parties, regionals and international; - Complete ending of the occupation of the Gaza Strip, including evacuation of the Israeli-ruled "Philadelphi Corridor" which separates the Gaza Strip from Egypt; - Opening the air and sea ports to unhindered Palestinian use, while finding security arrangements which do not necessitate Israeli military presence; - Economic agreements regarding both the fate of infrastructure left behind by Israel and the creation of jobs for the chronically-unemployed Palestinian population; - Creating a "judicial-political linkage" between the West Bank and Gaza Strip, so as to prevent a permanent division between them; - Ways to reach cease fire, so as to facilitate the opening of formal negotiations between the Israeli and Palestinian leaderships. | |
Saturday, August 14, 2004
The Only Game in Town
Friday, August 13, 2004
Happenings
| Happenings | |
| This weeks events: click on the links for the full stories Susan Brannon August 13, 2004 | Back to Palestine Back to Home |
| The only game in town by Sima Kadmon, Yediot Aharonot, August 13 This week, there was an intensive debate in "The Majority Headquarters", the coalition of political parties and extra parliamentary movements which organized the giant rally at Rabin Square two months ago. | |
| |
Happenings
| Happenings | |
| This weeks events: click on the links for the full stories | Back to Palestine Back to Home |
| Susan Brannon week of August 13, 2004 The only game in town by Sima Kadmon, Yediot Aharonot, August 13 This week, there was an intensive debate in "The Majority Headquarters", the coalition of political parties and extra parliamentary movements which organized the giant rally at Rabin Square two months ago. | |
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Wednesday, August 11, 2004
A Comprehensive Guide to US foreign Aid to Israel
| A Comprehensive Guide to US foreign Aid to Israel | |
| Source: The Washington Report on Middle East Affairs, April 1996, pgs. 7, 49-52 by Shawn L. Twing | |
| Few aspects of U.S. foreign policy are as elusive as U.S. aid to Israel . Despite severe budgetary constraints and an ongoing battle between congressional Republicans and the White House over the terms of a balanced U.S. budget, there is one thing on which both sides agree: U.S. aid to Israel will not be reduced. | |
| To understand the magnitude of U.S. aid to Israel it is necessary to look past the economic and military components of the U.S. foreign aid budget, of which Israel receives more than one-quarter of the worldwide total ($12.1 billion for fiscal year 1996), to additional amounts disbursed through the budgets of other departments and agencies scattered throughout the U.S. government. It also is important to understand the terms of these aid components, which include preferential treatment for Israel , exemption from certain U.S. laws and also from the oversight applied to every other U.S. aid recipient, and even disregard of Israeli abuses when they are revealed. Finally, Israel 's current economic profile suggests that it no longer needs U.S. financial largess. Nevertheless, a pattern has developed whereby neither Congress nor the White House dares dismantle what Indiana Democratic Representative Lee Hamilton has referred to as Israel 's "aid industry." Economic Aid Since 1949, U.S. taxpayers have provided Israel $23.122 billion in grant Economic Support Funds (ESF) and $1.517 billion in ESF loans. An additional $94 million in economic grants and $588.5 million in loans were given to Israel from 1952 through 1974 under the "Food for Peace" program. Prior to 1971, ESF aid was given for program-specific uses which were intended only to purchase U.S.-made products. After 1971, ESF funds were provided on a direct-transfer basis to be spent at the discretion of the Israeli government without any U.S. government oversight. In each fiscal year since 1994, Israel has used approximately $1 billion of its $1.2 billion in ESF to cover the interest and principal due on its outstanding loans from the United States government. Ever since 1984, the Cranston Amendment, named after its Senate sponsor, California Democrat Alan Cranston, has been attached to every U.S. foreign aid bill. It compels the U.S. government to provide Israel enough ESF funds to meet its debt burden to the United States . The Cranston Amendment reads, in part: "It is the policy and the intention of the United States that the funds provided in annual appropriations for the Economic Support Fund[s]?which are allocated to Israel shall not be less than the annual debt repayment (interest and principal) from Israel to the United States Government in recognition that such a principle serves United States interests in the region." The Cranston Amendment guaranteeing that the amount of Economic Support Funds going to Israel will not fall below the amount of money needed by Israel to repay its loans from the United States government has led to some interesting justifications for continued ESF economic assistance. Lobbyists for Israel and their sympathizers in Washington argue that current ESF grants really don't cost American taxpayers anything. They maintain that providing U.S. taxpayer funds to Israel to pay off debts owed to the U.S. government simply moves money around without actually giving it to Israel . Anyone who has ever borrowed money from a bank or used a credit card knows that this is nonsense. Two decades ago the U.S. government borrowed money to lend to Israel on the assumption that the Israelis would pay it back and the U.S. then could use the repayments to repay its own debts. Now the U.S. government continues to pay interest on the money it originally borrowed to lend to Israel , and also pays the interest on the money Israel borrowed from the U.S. In January 1992, after months of heated debate between the administration of President George Bush and the Israeli government and its supporters in American Jewish groups and in Congress, Congress and the White House agreed to provide Israel with $10 billion in loan guarantees to be distributed at the rate of $2 billion a year over five years. The legislation accompanying the loan guarantees stipulated that Israel could not use the money to settle Jews in the Israeli-occupied territories. It provided that the loan guarantees would be reduced by whatever amount the Israeli government spent on Jewish settlements in the West Bank and Gaza. As a result, the $2 billion sum was reduced by $437 million in FY94 and $216.8 million in FY95 based on U.S. government estimates of Israel 's illegal construction in the territories during the previous fiscal year. In each case, however, President Clinton increased the actual amount of aid to Israel for that year to help offset the reductions in the loan guarantees, thus keeping a promise he made to Israel's late Prime Minister Yitzhak Rabin that he would not allow the total amount of aid to Israel to drop below the level provided to Israel in fiscal year 1993. Israeli officials and lobbyists argue that the $10 billion in loan guarantees will not cost the United States anything because the Israeli government borrows the money from private financial institutions. The U.S. government, however, guarantees the full value of the loans in the event that Israel defaults on repayment, which gives Israel considerable leverage if it asks for U.S. financial assistance to help repay the loans. Israel has achieved a good international credit rating, thanks to the congressional practice of providing Israel with new grants to cover "repayment" of its loans from the United States government. This track record makes it likely that the U.S. government actually will absorb some or all of the costs of repaying both the principal and interest on Israel 's new $10 billion in U.S.-government-guaranteed debts. This would involve a cost to the U.S. taxpayers of far more than the original $10 billion in U.S. loan guarantees to Israel . Military Aid At present the largest component of U.S. grant aid to Israel is the annual $1.8 billion military aid package. Since the U.S. military aid program to Israel began in 1959, the U.S. government has provided Israel $40.28 billion in military aid. Of this, $29.065 billion has been in grants and $11.213 billion has been in loans which U.S. taxpayers repay each year. Since 1985, however, all of the U.S. military aid component of U.S. foreign aid to Israel has been in the form of grants rather than loans, exactly as has been the case with the economic component of U.S. foreign aid to Israel . U.S. military aid to Israel reached the $1.8 billion annual level in 1987 and, according to pending legislation and congressional and White House promises, it will continue at this level at least through FY97 (which ends on Sept. 30, 1997 ). The purpose of the military aid package, as elaborated by the administration of Ronald Reagan and both of its successors, is to maintain Israel 's "qualitative military superiority" over any combination of its Arab neighbors. Proponents of this massive U.S. military subsidy to Israel argue that it is not a total loss for the United States because much of it subsidizes America 's defense industry, especially in the current post-Cold War period when defense contractors are faced with declining orders for military hardware. The reality, however, is that the $1.8 billion foreign military sales (FMS) grant to Israel could instead be used to procure defense items needed for U.S. forces. Consider this: one year of U.S. military aid to Israel could purchase 18 of the much-needed F-22 next generation fighter aircraft for American pilots, at the staggering price of $100 million apiece. The Pentagon plans to procure for U.S. use more than 400 of the F-22s over the next two decades. Eliminating Israel 's annual aid subsidy during that same time frame would accomplish just that, without the additional cost to U.S. taxpayers. Also ignored by proponents of Israel 's military aid program is the clause written into the grant since 1991 stating that $475 million of that $1.8 billion package "shall be available only for procurement in Israel of defense articles and defense services, including research and development." Normally military aid components of U.S. foreign aid may be used only for purchases of U.S. weapons or training. Exceptions in the case of military aid to Israel began in fiscal year 1977, when Israel asked for a "one-time-only" provision to use $107 million of U.S. FMS assistance for its Merkava main battle tank. Congress approved a similar measure in 1983 for $300 million for the Lavi fighter. Since FY91, the U.S. government has allowed Israel to use $475 million each year for investment or purchases from its own defense industry. Such exceptions, which are not made for other countries receiving U.S. military aid, enable Israel to expand its defense industries, which compete on the international market with U.S. defense firms. The exceptions for Israel are completely contrary to the original intent of the foreign military sales program. Other Budgeted Items Aside from the $3 billion given to Israel each year from the foreign aid budget for economic ($1.2 billion) and military ($1.8 billion) aid, significant amounts of American tax dollars are channeled to Israel through other means. These additional expenditures are included in the budgets of the State, Defense and Commerce departments and other federal agencies, and are not included in official estimates of U.S. foreign aid. In the State Department's budget for FY96 an additional $93.5 million in grants to Israel were allocated as follows: $80 million to resettle in Israel Jewish refugees from the former Soviet Union ; $3.5 million for a regional cooperation agreement with Egypt ; and $10 million to pay for Israel 's own foreign aid program. This brings to $993.4 million the total of additional grants provided to Israel from the State Department's budget since FY73, when the first refugee resettlement payment was given to Israel . None of these grants are included in Economic Support Fund or Foreign Military Sales calculations of U.S. foreign aid totals. The Defense Department also is a major supplier of money, equipment and training to Israel outside the regular foreign aid budget. In FY90, $100 million worth of hardware was added to the existing $100 million U.S. military equipment stockpile in Israel , which is available to Israeli forces in case of a military emergency. During FY95, an additional $200 million worth of equipment was added, for a total of $400 million. Justification for the placement of the equipment in Israel rests on the assertion that Israel is a U.S. "strategic asset" in the Middle East . Few, if any, of the Pentagon's contingency planners and commanders would agree. In fact, the U.S. Central Command (CENTCOM), the division of the U.S. military charged with protecting U.S. interests in East Africa, the Arabian Peninsula, the Persian/Arabian Gulf, and Southwest Asia, doesn't include Israel within its area of responsibility. Because of the unsettled dispute with the Palestinians, other American allies among the Arab states in the region would refuse to participate in any coalition or regional defense scheme which included Israel . Evidence of the hollow nature of the " Israel as a strategic asset" justification for U.S. foreign aid came during the Gulf war. After Iraqi Scud missiles landed in Tel Aviv, Israel insisted that it would use its own air force to destroy the missile launchers in Iraq . U.S. defense officials feared that Israel 's involvement in the war would rupture the 37-nation coalition aligned against Iraq . The Israelis maintain that they eventually agreed not to attack Iraq because of the damage that would have caused the coalition. In reality, it's an open secret that the United States refused to give Israel the Identification Friend or Foe (IFF) signals that identify friendly aircraft during U.S. military operations. The truth is, had Israeli aircraft attacked the Iraqis without these codes, the Israeli aircraft probably would have been shot down by coalition aircraft. The forced diversion of coalition aircraft from the main attack on Iraqi forces to find and destroy mobile missile launchers targeting Israel, and the danger to the coalition posed by Israel's behavior during the Gulf war exposed the emptiness of the claim by lobbyists for Israel that their client is a U.S. "strategic asset" in the Middle East. Congressional decisions in 1991 to grant Israel $700 million in drawdown authority from U.S. military stocks in Western Europe , followed by an additional $75 million drawdown in FY95, were not well received in the Pentagon. The drawdown authority was used by Israel to obtain used F-16 multi-role aircraft, but their categorization as "excess" was false. The F-16s given to Israel were not collecting dust in Air Force hangers, they were protecting American national security interests in Western Europe . Nor was this the first time that U.S. defenses in Europe were jeopardized to protect Israel . The sharp drawdowns of U.S. equipment in use by American forces in Europe and the U.S. to re-arm Israeli forces during and after the October 1973 war left U.S. components of NATO forces dangerously unprepared for possible Soviet attack for many months. Significant resentment remains among members of the U.S. armed forces who believe Congress twice put their own and the nation's safety at risk on behalf of Israel . Israel 's Arrow anti-tactical ballistic missile is another program of little or no benefit to the United States . It doesn't show up in U.S. foreign aid totals, but it is funded by American taxpayers. Since its inception in 1988, the Arrow program has cost the United States over $653 million, and U.S. officials have promised Israel at least another $711.3 million through FY2001. (For a complete breakdown of U.S. aid to Israel's Arrow program, see the October/November 1995 Washington Report, p. 12.) The money comes from the budgets of the U.S. Air Force and the Ballistic Missile Defense Organization and, with the exception of $97.9 million of Israel's "share" paid with U.S. FMS aid money, all of the Arrow's costs to the United States are in addition to Israel's portion of the U.S. foreign aid budget. Israel 's lobbyists argue that the Arrow should not be considered "foreign aid" because it is an example of U.S.-Israeli "strategic cooperation" and both sides benefit from the project. That is nonsense. The Pentagon has made it clear that it has no intention of buying the Arrow, a relatively low-technology ATBM unsuited for U.S. defense needs. Further, the transfer of technology in the Arrow program is decidedly one-way: from the United States to Israel . It took significant amounts of U.S.-origin technology and technical guidance to get the Arrow off the ground. Arrow advocates maintain that the technology developed by Israel for use in the Arrow's seeker, the device which tracks ballistic missiles, aided in the development of the U.S. Army's high-technology Theater High Altitude Area Defense (THAAD) system. No one, however, is willing to argue that the money spent in Israel on the Arrow program produced better results for U.S. theater missile defense systems than would have been produced by the same amount of U.S. money spent in the United States . Pentagon funds also go to Israel via U.S. purchases of Israeli-produced or co-produced military hardware. If these American purchases from Israel were used to offset the cost of Israeli military purchases from the U.S. , it might be considered a normal two-way relationship. Instead, Israel uses its FMS appropriations from the U.S. foreign aid budget for its purchases from the U.S. , and the U.S. uses Department of Defense funds for its purchases from Israel . U.S. taxpayers foot the bill for both sides of the two-way trade, but only the Israeli purchases show up in the published totals of U.S. taxpayer-funded foreign aid. Thus U.S. taxpayers fund the export of U.S. jobs to Israel , since all of the military equipment the U.S. government purchases there also could be purchased from U.S. manufacturers. Over the past decade the Pentagon has provided funds for research and development and/or purchase of Israeli-made mortar shells, external fuel tanks for CH-53 helicopters, night-vision equipment, external fuel tanks for F-15 fighter aircraft, rear stabilizers for F-16 multi-role aircraft, unmanned aerial vehicles (UAVs), tank armor upgrades, air-to-ground missiles, attack helicopter targeting systems, a television weapons sighting system, communications equipment and two experimental laser programs. The Pentagon's FY96 appropriations bill, for example, authorizes $20 million for the Hunter UAV (co-produced by Israel); $39 million for the AGM-142 HAVE-NAP air-to-ground missile; $14 million for reactive tank armor upgrades; $38 million for AH-1 Cobra attack helicopter night-targeting systems; an unspecified amount for the Single Channel Ground and Airborne Radio System (SINCGARS) and $5 million for the Nautilus laser program. Congress's decision to include these items in the Pentagon's funding authorization earned it praise from Israel 's principal Washington , D.C. lobby, the American Israel Public Affairs Committee (AIPAC). The Aug. 14, 1995 Near East Report, a biweekly newsletter published by AIPAC, praised individual congressional committee members by name for their role in promoting this Pentagon-funded "U.S.-Israeli Strategic Cooperation." The Immigration and Naturalization Service also purchases equipment from an Israeli company. In November 1995, INS officials announced that the Israeli Elbit firm will supply the U.S. border patrol with 500 long-range infrared surveillance systems over five years for a total cost of $17 million. This contract, which is similar to those arranged by the Pentagon, would have to be placed with American companies if the U.S. "Buy American" act were enforced. Instead, Israeli firms have been exempted by Congress from that piece of U.S. legislation and therefore are allowed to compete with American companies for U.S. government contracts. The Department of Commerce budget also contains funds for Israel 's use which appear nowhere in U.S. foreign aid totals. One example is joint sponsorship of the U.S.-Israeli Science and Technology Commission for which, in FY95, the Department of Commerce provided $5 million. Pending legislation for FY96 requests an additional $2.5 million. This money funds joint technological research by the U.S. and Israeli private sectors. Preferential Treatment for Israel Not only has tiny Israel been the recipient of the largest share of U.S. foreign aid for many years, it also receives its aid from the United States on uniquely friendly terms. Many congressionally mandated benefits to Israel are applicable to no other recipient nation in the world. One example is in the way its ESF funds are disbursed. Unlike all other U.S. foreign aid recipient countries, which receive their funds on a quarterly basis, since 1982 Israel has received its annual foreign aid in one lump sum, usually paid by the end of the first month of the U.S. fiscal year. In order to provide the full amount to Israel in this manner, the United States government pays between $50 and $60 million in additional bank charges, which are not deducted from the money given to Israel . Israel then reinvests the aid money in U.S. Treasury notes, earning between $80 and $90 million in interest paid by U.S. taxpayers. The importance to Israel of this unique advance distribution arrangement was highlighted during the recent dispute over anti-abortion language added to the foreign aid bill by pro-life members of Congress. Because President Clinton refused to sign the bill as it was submitted to him, the impasse held up the distribution of Israel 's aid money. This led Israeli Ambassador to the United States Itamar Rabinovich to complain about the delay. "The longer we have the money the more interest we earn," he explained. No one in the U.S. government dared to point out that "the longer the U.S. delays in providing the money to Israel the less the U.S. taxpayer has to pay in interest." Another benefit Israel receives, along with several other FMS recipients including Egypt , is cash flow financing, which allows Israel to pay only the current-year charges for multi-year FMS contracts. Other countries that purchase defense items over an extended period of time are required to set the total amount of the contract aside in their FMS account. Israel pays only the required installment for that year, which analysts say creates a commitment on the part of the United States government to furnish more aid during the following years to pay for the already agreed-to contracts. Israel also enjoys considerable latitude in its FMS account. In purely commercial contracts it is common for purchasers to negotiate price offsets based on the incorporation of technology from the purchasing country into the foreign item to be purchased. In FMS contracts, however, the intention is to provide customers for U.S. defense companies, and offsets are not allowed in items purchased with FMS funds,except, of course, in the case of Israel . Unlike any other country receiving U.S. FMS credits, Israel can negotiate with U.S. defense companies for offsets from its own (and largely U.S.-subsidized) defense industry, thereby lowering the cost of the items it purchases and providing jobs for Israelis by reducing jobs in the American companies providing military goods and services to Israel. Israeli Violations of U.S. Law Despite the remarkably generous treatment given to Israel by the United States government, Israel consistently has abused its relationship with Washington and has shown blatant disregard for U.S. laws. There are two important conditions for receiving U.S. military aid that Israel has violated repeatedly. Under the Arms Export Control Act, military hardware provided by FMS funds can be used only for defensive purposes or to maintain internal security. Israel violated this agreement during its 1982 invasion of Lebanon when it used U.S.-made cluster bombs against both military and civilian targets in Lebanon . In response, Congress suspended the sale of cluster bombs to Israel , a ban that remains in effect today. In reality, however, Congress suspended only the sale of cluster bomb casings to Israel , not the bomb components themselves. Now Israel manufactures its own casings, and procures the rest of the cluster bomb components from the United States . So far this circumvention of U.S. law has not been challenged. The most egregious allegations of abuse of the U.S.-Israeli relationship by Israel have arisen from illegal transfers of U.S. technology from Israel to third countries. According to the Arms Export Control Act, Israel is forbidden from retransferring U.S.-origin defense items to third parties without the permission of the United States government. However, according to officials in the U.S. intelligence community, the Pentagon and the State Department, Israel has or may have retransferred sensitive U.S. technology to Ethiopia (during the reign of a communist government there), South Africa (during the apartheid era), Chile , Venezuela and communist China . Among the items allegedly transferred were the Patriot theater ballistic missile defense system and the largely U.S.-funded Lavi next generation fighter (see the January 1996 Washington Report, p. 12, for the Lavi; September 1995 Washington Report, p. 8, for Israel 's retransfer of U.S. technology). Israel's retransfer of U.S. defense technology, virtually all of which is provided to Israel by U.S. taxpayers, threatens U.S. national security, creates unfair competition for U.S. defense firms, and has strengthened regimes guilty of serious human rights abuses or actively working against U.S. national interests. Israel 's supporters in Congress, however, do not seem to care. At least nine reports of Israel 's illegal retransfer of U.S. defense items have been given to Congress, including two in January 1995. None has had a discernible impact on Israel 's retransfer policies. Israel continues to receive massive amounts of U.S. aid and then derives additional profits from that aid by breaking the conditions of U.S. aid agreements in ways that export more U.S. jobs and threaten the security interests of the United States . Israel 's Economy Supporters of foreign aid in general and aid to Israel in particular argue that America 's foreign aid program is a necessary component of its foreign policy. In many cases foreign aid can be justified either on the basis of the recipient's need, the benefits to the United States from providing that aid, or both. Israel , however, does not meet either of these criteria. In 1995, Israel 's per capita Gross Domestic Product (GDP), the value of a nation's annual production divided by the number of its citizens, exceeded $14,000, placing it above that of Spain and approaching that of England . Israel , as Israeli minister without portfolio Yossi Beilin recently pointed out, "is not a poor country." Why so much aid then? Since Israel is not a needy country, the secondary justification for aid, that a country or countries are so valuable to the donor that aid is justified, generally is invoked in the case of Israel . Israel 's lobbyists and supporters emphasize Israel 's role as a "strategic asset" and its importance to the United States based on their "special relationship." The former argument was not valid even during the Cold War, when U.S. support of Israel was exploited by the Soviet Union to garner allies throughout the Middle East among countries that had no conflict with the U.S. but were bitterly opposed to Israeli occupation of Arab lands. That Israel remains a strategic liability in the Middle East was vividly demonstrated during the Gulf war. Then and now U.S. government officials privately expressed anger over the economic and military bonuses demanded by Israel for staying out of the war. These included $700 million in military hardware, a $300 million addition to the U.S. military stockpile in Israel and $650 million in extra economic support funds for FY91. The so-called "special relationship" between the United States and Israel is, in fact, a domestic political arrangement whereby lobbying organizations in the United States, directed by the Israeli government, and a network of political action committees established and, to a large extent, directed by that lobby, reward presidential candidates and members of Congress for continuing massive amounts of U.S. aid to Israel while simultaneously ignoring massive violations of U.S. laws. At the same time that Congress and the president are locked in a titanic struggle over the size, shape and direction of the federal budget, they have openly agreed, without debate, that in the 1996 fiscal year alone, Amrican taxpayers will provide Israel $3.5053 billion ($3,505,300,000) in U.S. grants and $2 billion in loan guarantees (see table), and they have quietly pledged continued aid at similar levels in the future. | |
Sunday, August 08, 2004
Suicide and Morality
Suicide and Morality, People's Opinions: An ongoing dialogue on suicide bombings and morality. I do not edit the letters. The words in bold are the beginning of a different persons dialogue. This dialogue became huge, I add new diagloues as they come in at the bottom so new readers can follow the events. I add to this daily since December 15th, 2004. This would make a good study!
let it direct your passion with reason, that your passion may live through its own daily resurrection, and like the phoenix rise above its own ashes. ~Khalil Gibran
If Palestinians were Killed by Suicide Bombers?
I am posting an old article as I read the posts on suicide bombings and morality. I condemn the use of suicide bombimgs but not for reasons of "morality." I just don't want more of our kids to die because they are the future of our society. Is it wrong that innocent Israelis die? You bet! But I would be lying if I said I get as emotional as when I hear of Palestinian innocents dying. I suspect that if people want suicide bombings to end, we're going to have to seek it in a way that elevates Palestinian life and wanting to see our youth live. Talking about the immorality of the loss of Israeli life while they bulldoze homes, kill our youth, and are generally content with occupying our people until violence visited them on their own doorsteps is not going to fly with too many people. Quite simply, we have to love our own people more than we hate them or their stupid and barbaric policies.
by Sherri Muzher | Paeline Chronicle | 19/3/2004 "Is that the problem? Palestinians are not being killed by suicide bombings and therefore their deaths are not going to warrant reactions of horror? .."
By SHERRI MUZHER
I just finished reading a report about the Israeli killing of 32 Palestinians the week of March 7, 2004 .
Ten of them were children and two were women. There was no breaking news or the usual presidential condemnation that often accommodates suicide bombings.
Is that the problem? Palestinians are not being killed by suicide bombings and therefore their deaths are not going to warrant reactions of horror?
It's a question that crosses my mind often when I hear about the repulsion against those who strap bombs. I don't support suicide bombings but I certainly don't distinguish between the deaths of innocents and more importantly, how the killings take place.
I am often asked if I condemn suicide bombings when a discussion hits on the Middle East conflict. Do Israeli-Americans get asked if they condemn occupation, I wonder? Anyhow, I usually ask “If Israelis were killed by military-style ambushes and Palestinians didn't strap bombs on themselves, would you find the deaths more tolerable?”
Silence usually follows.
Call me a human rights activist but results rather than methods anger me. What difference does it make how people are killed? Innocents are being killed on both the Palestinian and Israeli sides.
Specific to the Palestinians, nearly 3,000 have been killed since the uprising for freedom began in September, 2000 – a third of them, children. In the overwhelming majority of cases, Palestinians are killed in non-combative situations, just like Israeli civilians on buses are.
But dead Palestinian innocents are not afforded the dramatic media coverage that Israelis get. No breathless interviews; pictures of carnage; interviews with witnesses and government officials; and/or the traditional condemnation by President George Bush.
Perhaps most disheartening about the media coverage is the implication that the Palestinian-Israeli conflict is calm unless there is a suicide bombing. Try telling that to the Palestinian family of three-year-old Dina Iesa who went into shock and later died after hearing Israel shelling in her neighborhood.
But she didn't die in a suicide bombing. In fact, the 3,000 Palestinians didn't die by suicide bombings. None of them could go outside for a breath of fresh air without permission from the Israeli Defense Force, but hey, they didn't die by soldiers strapping bombs. That's all that matters, right?
What a fickle world we live in when people ignore the root causes of hatred and killing but just want to focus on whether a killer strapped a bomb on him/herself. I guess Palestinians killed by F16 bombings died with smiles on their faces.
Killing is killing !!! and killing innocents is simply"killing innocents". The difference lies in the identity of the killer: is he an occupier ?? or an occupied ?? Making no difference is erroneous , if not naively-simplistic. Merry Christmas Horst Gottwald Muenchen BRD
I don't disagree with the point above. I think the Israeli left (in Israel) has collapsed and is replaced by a phoniness ... Israelis who talk of peace but never admit any fault of their own. It's always the Palestinians who are bad and doing bad things, and they NEVER acknowledge the viciousness of their own violence and state terrorism by the Sharon Government. Still, as a longtime believer in the power of non-violence, I believe that strengthening the moral character of a people gives the oppressed more fortitude and stamina to survive even the most brutal of oppressions. And Israel 's occupation has never been more vicious, brutal and immoral. Imagine the arrogance of a people who believe that they can build a wall around a people to prevent justice or being forced to acknowledge their guilt in causing the conflict and current violence. My issue is not so much to make the Israelis feel good, but to strengthen the moral high ground of the Palestinians and build world support among the nations where it matters most ... Let's face it, we often settle for crumbs in our leadership, our spokespeople, and in our successes. Europe , for example, is worthless, despite their valiant support of our cause. Palestinians need to win back the support of the American public. That's a whole, another issue for later discussion :) But I respect your opinion. Just disagree ..
it is interesting to note that Israelis rarely spoke out against leaving the Occupied Territories and never cared about the suffering of Palestinians until violence visited them on their doorsteps. Who is rewarding violence? Israelis generally make it extremely difficult for those of us who support Satyagraha to do so.
I and the public know
what all schoolchildren learn
those to whom evil is done
do evil in return.
W. H. Auden
US (English-born) critic & poet (1907 - 1973)
My point is that if one is to convince the average Palestinian Joe not to believe in suicide bombings or armed struggle, it needs to be done in a way that talks about loving our own people more and not wanting to lose more of our youth. Preaching morality to the demoralized is not going to fly. We need to do a better job as a people speaking in terms that the layperson understands. BTW, it is interesting to note that Israelis rarely spoke out against leaving the Occupied Territories and never cared about the suffering of Palestinians until violence visited them on their doorsteps. Who is rewarding violence? Israelis generally make it extremely difficult for those of us who support Satyagraha to do so. Ray, I agree with you on a lot of things but while we agree that suicide bombings are wrong, we completely disagree on how to sell the message in a way that will resonate with Palestinians on the street. I just find it difficult to believe that preaching morality to those who cannot even go out for a breath of fresh air without permission from the IDF are going to find your PR strategy convincing. Maybe I'm wrong, but I hear far too much justifiable rage from Palestinians to see it that way. Now, if you talk about saving the youth of our future and loving our people, people are less likely to roll their eyes. Food for thought . . .
If I were tying to make a point on suicide bombings that might be effective, I would use the argument that I would not be giving my enemy what he wants, and the Israeli leadership does thrive on this, with just another excuse to inflict more damage and destruction on the Palestinian population even though this defies all rules of law amd ethics. I don't doubt for one minute that this is what they want and what they try to incite. In that case, as Ray pointed out previously, a strategy of disrupting Israeli society would be much more effective anyway. Sharon is not grieving for Israeli victims. This is a fascade. He is delighted! Another Palestinian who blows himself up is just one less Palestinian who will have a family and bring more Palestinians into the world where your thoughts come in about saving Palestinian youth, which is the future of Palestine , instead of destroying it. Live for Palestine ! Marlene
Absolutely! The breaking down of society is precisely what the Israeli government wants. Civil disruption is the way to go, or if people are determined to still hit militarily, target the army where it hurts. That is completely within the realm of the law, and it hurts Israel 's psyche far more. On a personal level, it saves our own youth. These days, that should be our concern. There is an Israeli rabbi who once said that the lives of one thousand Arabs is not worth the fingernail of a Jew. I won't go so far as to be that hateful and despicable, but I would caution Palestinians to remember how much Israelis treasure their own lives. Why are our youth being wasted? And consider that the PA is going to negotiate a final deal anyway. The loss of Palestinian life is unforgivable.
A vision of hope and a better tomorrow is what must be conveyed to our precious youth. We must convince them that their lives carry a great amount of importance to us and the rest of the Palestinian people and should not be wasted in such a manner!
I am still baffled as to why Israeli roads and infrastructure, particularly the ones in the occupied territories are not targeted!
While I support a world in which "Jewish people" are living in
prosperity and safety with and within every other nation and people,
Israel and the "Jewish people" cannot be allowed to ride rough shod
over others.
If the "Jewish people" wish to live in peace with the non Jews of
the world, let them show it in their actions. This would include
their involvements in infiltrating governments such as America
government and formenting wars against non Jewish nations in the
Middle East and worldwide. Let the "Jewish people" be known for
their ability to find ways for everyone to live in peace and end
wars rather than being known for their sly formentations of wars and
strife worldwide.
May it begin in Palestine . Otherwise, may the fighting increase
until there is complete victory over these anti Christ, gentile
hating, world dominating Judeao/Zionist/Bolshevik monsters.
Mik
I can see stopping suicide bombings, as they guarantee the death of
the one carrying out the attack. To me it has never been the
warriors way. To die in battle against ones enemy with some hope of
survival and victory is one thing, but to fight in ways that always
guarantee the death of the warrior seems wrong from a survival of
the species and family standpoint. It is one thing to sacrifice
oneself in the heat of battle, and yet another to guarantee one's
own destruction.
However to give up all resistance while ones enemy continues to
descimate the Palestinian people, showing no respect for them, their
property, or their families, while the enemy ( Israel ) continues it's
aggressions and killings may be self defeating as well.
Yet, we are still waiting for Israel to show that is their
intention. The intentions that Israel shows, judging from the
political speeches in the Knesset, it to continue on their slow
ethnic cleansing and genocide of the Palestinian people. On at least
a weekly schedule they call out for even more wars against Syria and
Iran , and we know their manipulations within the American government
to attack all other Arab countries as well. So why should armed
resistance stop?
Setting aside suicide bombings and armed struggle sounds like a good
idea provided Israel was dedicated to ending it's aggressions,
murder, assasinations, land theft and daily torture and torment of
the Palestinian and non Jewish people throughout the Middle East and
the World.
If Israel wished to create a situation in which everyone was working
for the common good of all, let it so be!! It would seem to be the
best for everyone....
On suicide bombings ... they are illegal and immoral and wrong. Period. You don't kill innocent people or hold an entire nation guilty for the actions of its leaders ... Palestinians make that very good argument all the time, yet some say nothingt when Palesitnians kill innocent Israelis in this most vicious and brutal manner. There is NO COMPROMISE on suicide bombings ... it is an ugly, uIslamic, unChristian act of horrendous immoral violence. People on both sides are committing illegal acts. How can we, as Palestinians, denounce Israel for violating Palestinian rights through such things as collective punishment, when we permit ourselves to rationalize the collective guilt of all Jews in Israel . They are not all guilty of crimes against Palesitnians and many non-Jews are killed, too. There is one morality. One principle. One rule of law. One standard. One justice. WHen you apply it to both sides fairly, then you can argue that justice is on your side. Don't let passion turn into emotion and then violence. It hasn't done one thing to help Palestine and that is a fact. Ray Hanania
A suicide bomber commits first a suicide and then secondly he kills his ennemy,invader,opressor. If an Israeli would commit a suicide bombing he or she will be killing his own victims. Therefore Dr. S. Muzher is utterly wrong in making any comparaison , as she did ,initialy. What she wrote was 180 degree away from correct. Horst
Dear Ray , I see now why the Americans gave you a reward. Was it the same crime when the British bommbed Germany as when Germany bombed England ???? Was it the same crime when an Algerian shot a French Soldier in Algeria , when the French were the occupiers ??? Why should we be more "Catholish than the Pope" ?? why should we turn the left cheak and the right cheak and again the left cheak,etc ?? Why the hypocrisy when you have the moral-high-ground ?? are we fishing for an Oscar or for a Nobel Prize ?? Horst Gottwald BRD
Why would one speak on a subject as important as this, without
knowledge or acknowledgement of the law in these matters?
There is absolutely NO DOUBT Israel has always been on the wrong side
of the law for decades now; whereas Palestinians are not on the wrong
side of the law, and have not violated the law - not even what you
refer to as "suicide bombers" are illegal. Because Israel is illegally
occupying Palestine , such a legal and physical fact, by international
law, gives Palestinians the legal right to use what the Geneva
Conventions term as, "....any means necessary" to evict the illegal
occupiers from Palestine .
The entire world knows Israel and the US government are partners in
crime against Palestine and Muslims worldwide.
Too bad the American people have been brainwashed by the
Corporate-Zionist media in America , for their entire lives. most
Americans don't even KNOW Israel and the U.S. is and has been on the
wrong side of the law since day one.
.r o n
Raja, is that your new "name?" Horst? Raja, I stand by what I said. If you are into Palestinians blowing themselves up, why don't you offer youself up for sacrifice first. Goodness, how easy it is to push for others to be killed from the comfort of one's home.
A suicide bomber commits first a suicide and then secondly he kills his ennemy,invader,opressor. If an Israeli would commit a suicide bombing he or she will be killing his own victims. Therefore Dr. S. Muzher is utterly wrong in making any comparaison , as she did ,initialy. What she wrote was 180 degree away from correct. Horst
it is interesting to note that Israelis rarely spoke out against leaving the Occupied Territories and never cared about the suffering of Palestinians until violence visited them on their doorsteps. Who is rewarding violence? Israelis generally make it extremely difficult for those of us who support Satyagraha to do so. >>>
Good point Palestinians were very passive under the Israeli occupation for 20 years, from 1967 until the first intifada in 1987 so there was nothing for the Israelis to complain about. Until that time, in the United States, I would say no one was paying any attention to the Palestinians, and they were like a people who never existed, which is the way Israel would have liked it to remain.
The first intifada was mostly all civilians who had no weapons other than stones and molotov cocktails, yet they were brutalized just for that. The first suicide bombing didn't happen until 1994 which was 7 years after the first uprising, and then 27 years into the Israeli occupation, just after Baruch Goldstein killed 29 Muslim worshippers in Hebron, for which the Israeli government did nothing when they should have removed the crazed fanatics. The lives of the Palestinians still remained unchanged. So it seems very likely that without armed struggle, the Palestinians will be swept under the rug again unless there is some kind of very strong, unified worldwide effort made on their behalf.
Marlene
Ron, then tell me how I defend this:
The Israelis say that the Palestinians "breed" suicide bombers, encourage
their children to become martyrs.
We deny that, right?
Then why do I have a Palestinian friend, very very financially successful
and perhaps someone people here on this list have met and seen in the media,
who would actually send his son to die as a suicide bomber if he could?
Why do I know of one Palestinian mother who has, despite me cringing when I
hear this, who indeed has given birth to twelve children, a couple who have
so far become suicide bombers and her reason for "replacing" them with more?
This exists, and it's despicable. But there *are* people, well educated and
very well off, who would do this?
It is only partly, according to them, to do with Israel .
So how do you defend that?
Tanya
The Israelis say that the Palestinians "breed" suicide bombers, encourage
their children to become martyrs.
We deny that, right?
Then why do I have a Palestinian friend, very very financially successful
and perhaps someone people here on this list have met and seen in the media,
who would actually send his son to die as a suicide bomber if he could?
Why do I know of one Palestinian mother who has, despite me cringing when I
hear this, who indeed has given birth to twelve children, a couple who have
so far become suicide bombers and her reason for "replacing" them with more?
This exists, and it's despicable. But there *are* people, well educated and
very well off, who would do this?
It is only partly, according to them, to do with Israel .
So how do you defend that?
Tanya
I don't speak for the Palestinian Authority, nor the PLO, nor Sherri or any
other member here.
But you, Ron, are out of line *in my opinion*.
You call Sherri a phoney? You cannot be serious.
Do you seriously think that Palestinians....all of them...MUST think the way
you do because you are enlightened and they are not?
What makes you think Sherri is inactive?
Fighting is your answer, isn't it? That's all?
Sad, so sad.
Tanya
other member here.
But you, Ron, are out of line *in my opinion*.
You call Sherri a phoney? You cannot be serious.
Do you seriously think that Palestinians....all of them...MUST think the way
you do because you are enlightened and they are not?
What makes you think Sherri is inactive?
Fighting is your answer, isn't it? That's all?
Sad, so sad.
Tanya
Ron, if you "respectfully" disagree, then "respectfully" disagree.
I recall just about six weeks ago you left a post asking to be enlightened and that you had a lot to learn (something to that effect). Now, six weeks later, you seem to know everything and others know nothing and you're the only one who understands the hopelessness and despair of the Palestinians, which is a good thing, but please don't accuse anyone of not understanding when they have long been involved in the Palestinian struggle, which is sometimes just being armed with a keyboard.
We're all well aware that the law is with the Palestinians which certainly legitimizes their struggle and makes it just without any doubt, so if laws were adhered to, it sure would solve a lof of problems, but that is not the way it has thus far worked.
I hope you at least looked up Sherri's name in Google to read some of the wonderful articles she's written which you may also learn further from.
Marlene
You forgot to mention that I work for Mossad and was solely responsible for the drafting of the Oslo Accords -- I managed to do this at the tender age of 23. <<
You too?! Sherri...welcome to the club! ;-)
>>You have got to be kidding me, Ron. I question the agenda of those who spend their energies trying to bring down other activists -- I truly do. You are not the first one I have come across to try and do this, and sadly won't be the last. You are free to look up my witings on the internet. Then, come back to me with your rubbish.<<
Amen. Sadly and with regrets Sherri...amen.
It's not worth it. Our efforts need to be confined to changing things, not arguing the same old story to those who are quite fresh to this. (The “radical” thought process playing out...)
You too?! Sherri...welcome to the club! ;-)
>>You have got to be kidding me, Ron. I question the agenda of those who spend their energies trying to bring down other activists -- I truly do. You are not the first one I have come across to try and do this, and sadly won't be the last. You are free to look up my witings on the internet. Then, come back to me with your rubbish.<<
Amen. Sadly and with regrets Sherri...amen.
It's not worth it. Our efforts need to be confined to changing things, not arguing the same old story to those who are quite fresh to this. (The “radical” thought process playing out...)
I read Sherri's post and see her love of Palestine and Palestinians in very word. Some of the postings on this list also relay a love of Palestine and Palestinians, however, they're mixed with bullying, one-sidedness, personal attacks and condescending mannerisms.
For example, Ray Hanania is always being misread. Ray, a Palestinian, has done more for Palestine by being a professional journalist and writing about the Palestinian cause. Precisely because he is Palestinian, he is taken seriously. How many Palestinians write columns regularly in a major metropolitan area? Even if we don't agree with his views, his message of injustice is there. It gives information to the most misinformed and uniformed population. It's not easy putting Palestine in front of yourself in America. Ray does just that. To think that he's in it for money or fame or he's a spy is insane. Why are we blinded by that? A question that I think will continue to be asked as long as we continue to create negativity amongst ourselves.
you are dead right.
I'm wondering if it's worth it to continue here also, because there are valuable items posted many a time.
But this is what we see over and over and over: fighting and in-fighting because this person here doesn't believe exactly what this person here believes.
This is exactly what we all know happens, and it leads to nothing .
I posted some other messages yesterday along these lines but haven't seen them posted. Have they come through?
Tanya
Oh my..........what it boils down to is, you believe Palestinian "suicide bombers" lives were spent in vain, when they could have lived there life out in peace instead.....I respectfully disagree.... that's why I think you're a phony, to a certain extent......because you apparently don't truly understand and comprehend the hopelessness and despair, comingled with the "suicide bomber's" attempt to make their life mean something more than just one of unilateral suffering. These people don't have an air force, navy and marines, nuclear bombs and helicopters.......but they do have the self-determination to fight their oppressors the best way they can..........many Westerners cannot comprehend this, because of most Westerners' lack of empathy in these matters. To sit quitely inactive, while your oppressors destroy you and your homeland seems unreasonable to me. r o n
trying to explain what? if Palestinians would just stop the "suicide bombing" then things could get better? That seems to be Sherri's point. If Palestinians would just stop the suicide bombings, then Israelis would stop killing Palestinians? If Palestinians would just stop the suicide bombings, then the world community will come to Palestinians' rescue? My point is what I said before: I'm not sending "suicide bombers" to die. I prefer no Palestinians or Israelis to die. I do understand Palestinian "suicide bombers" are a by-product of Israeli oppression and occupation - not a by-product of themselves. "Suicide bombers" are not a solution, but a symptom of decades of hopelessness and Israeli occupation/oppression. The disease is Israeli & U.S. lawlessness - the hypocrisy of our democracy - and The Cure is the international community, especially the United States, forcing Israel to comply with the 65+ U.N. Resolutions Israel is in violation of. There's your "Peace Plan" : FOLLOW THE LAW! .r o n
(12/23) Whenever I am asked about my support for suicide bombings, I always respond that
the question is an attempt to change the subject from Israeli crimes against humanity.
That is precisely what it is.
AFter the listener has had a chance to digest that, I go on to say that NO ONE outside of Palestine has a right to pass judgment on the tactics of resistance. NO ONE.
Since I have ususally been talking to French people, who are on the whole much more reasonable that US audiences, people usually do not find this response unreasonable.
But I continue to use it in the United States. The Zionists groan and howl, but after a time that dies away. I can tell most of the people listening understand.
the question is an attempt to change the subject from Israeli crimes against humanity.
That is precisely what it is.
AFter the listener has had a chance to digest that, I go on to say that NO ONE outside of Palestine has a right to pass judgment on the tactics of resistance. NO ONE.
Since I have ususally been talking to French people, who are on the whole much more reasonable that US audiences, people usually do not find this response unreasonable.
But I continue to use it in the United States. The Zionists groan and howl, but after a time that dies away. I can tell most of the people listening understand.
(12/23) We all understand.
It isn't working.
Now what?
Tanya
It isn't working.
Now what?
Tanya
Oh, no lecturing here from me.
I merely state that the international world has a problem with that. It is their opinion, and this is the biggest hindrance outside of Israel itself.
(12/23) The leadership will change, but what we have now is still pretty corrupt. The stories I have on how to operate within the PA or PLO are shameful. We know that Marwan Barghouti was a “good” man, and yet he's the one in jail. He's the one with the tiny apartment in a dangerous area. The others? Mansions and chauffeurs.
Appalling, when the people suffer so much. Do they deserve our undying and unswerving support? Is it time to call them to the table and demand proper change, not some petty paper chase?
How I wish Marwan stayed in; he promised he would not back out, and yet he did. How I wish Rantisi was still alive. There was so much hope in him.
What we have is what we have.
But under no circumstances to I lecture Palestinians there on morality. I merely point out what we all know: the view “outside” isn't changing, no matter how many deaths and suicides.
There has to be a better way.
I merely state that the international world has a problem with that. It is their opinion, and this is the biggest hindrance outside of Israel itself.
(12/23) The leadership will change, but what we have now is still pretty corrupt. The stories I have on how to operate within the PA or PLO are shameful. We know that Marwan Barghouti was a “good” man, and yet he's the one in jail. He's the one with the tiny apartment in a dangerous area. The others? Mansions and chauffeurs.
Appalling, when the people suffer so much. Do they deserve our undying and unswerving support? Is it time to call them to the table and demand proper change, not some petty paper chase?
How I wish Marwan stayed in; he promised he would not back out, and yet he did. How I wish Rantisi was still alive. There was so much hope in him.
What we have is what we have.
But under no circumstances to I lecture Palestinians there on morality. I merely point out what we all know: the view “outside” isn't changing, no matter how many deaths and suicides.
There has to be a better way.
(12/27) "I know why you aren't calling for Israel to comply with the law. I know
why you are obfuscating the issue of the imperative need for Israel and
the U.S. government to comply with the law, in order to create
conditions for peace. I don't hear you pontificating on the need for
the guilty parties to start following the law. You act and speak as if
Palestinians are wrongdoers who need to correct their evil,
unproductive ways." You forgot to mention that I work for Mossad and was solely responsible for the drafting of the Oslo Accords -- I managed to do this at the tender age of 23.
You have got to be kidding me, Ron. I question the agenda of those who spend their energies trying to bring down other activists -- I truly do. You are not the first one I have come across to try and do this, and sadly won't be the last. You are free to look up my witings on the internet. Then, come back to me with your rubbish.
why you are obfuscating the issue of the imperative need for Israel and
the U.S. government to comply with the law, in order to create
conditions for peace. I don't hear you pontificating on the need for
the guilty parties to start following the law. You act and speak as if
Palestinians are wrongdoers who need to correct their evil,
unproductive ways." You forgot to mention that I work for Mossad and was solely responsible for the drafting of the Oslo Accords -- I managed to do this at the tender age of 23.
You have got to be kidding me, Ron. I question the agenda of those who spend their energies trying to bring down other activists -- I truly do. You are not the first one I have come across to try and do this, and sadly won't be the last. You are free to look up my witings on the internet. Then, come back to me with your rubbish.(12/27) Just reading this whole exchange is so sad. It has prompted me to leave many lists and stop being involved in some major Palestinian organizations. I do a lot of organizing around peace and support for non-violence. When I reach out to the Palestinians and different groups this is what I see. I find myself depressed and sad--we are truly a mess.
This is not a personal attack, just an observation. Sometimes I really wonder about the people who so vehemently argue for Palestinian rights--not exclusive to this list. Will peace leave them twiddling their thumbs... is it the thrill of the fight? When it gets ugly, those things cross my mind--whether they are Arab/Palestinian or not. What are we looking to the future for? Chicago's Palestinian community mirrors this exchange. So much more can be done TOGETHER without the conspiracy theories, personal attacks. Can we agree to disagree and work together on common themes, or are we destined to languish in anger and dispair... Saffiya
(12/27) Ron, That seems to be my point? Go back and read my posts to see the point of what I said. I will ask you a rhetorical question -- rhetorical because I don't care to hear or read your patronizing conspiracies. Many of us know Palestinians who resisted the Israeli Occupation in the first Intifada. They didn't blow themselves up. Are they not worthy of our respect? Resistance comes in many forms. Even succeeding in the arts is a form of resistance, such as Ammar Hassan. Look at the Palestinian soccer team who are fighting against all odds to make it to the World Cup in 2006. Are they not heroes for daring to dream? And why do I say that the PA will negotiate the final deal? Because it will. Watch the news. It's not my choice. It's the reality. The kicker for me is that most of those who keep talking about fighting and death are people that live here in the States. They eat, drink, and sleep in safety but damn the Palestinians overseas if they say they are tired and just want some normalcy in their lives. One of the most disappointing aspects in this struggle for Palestinian justice is the infighting and unbelivable lack of tolerance toward people who want to try new approaches. I don't think there is a point in continuing this discussion given the personal attacks. Some people thrive on it but if we are to make a difference, we have to stick together. Those who don't get this simple point are part of the reason that 57 years of struggling have brought us us no further than 1947. That is nothing to be proud of.
trying to explain what? if Palestinians would just stop the "suicide
bombing" then things could get better? That seems to be Sherri's point.
If Palestinians would just stop the suicide bombings, then Israelis
would stop killing Palestinians?
If Palestinians would just stop the suicide bombings, then the world
community will come to Palestinians' rescue?
(12/27) My point is what I said before:
I'm not sending "suicide bombers" to die. I prefer no Palestinians or
Israelis to die.
I do understand Palestinian "suicide bombers" are a by-product of
Israeli oppression and occupation - not a by-product of themselves.
"Suicide bombers" are not a solution, but a symptom of decades of
hopelessness and Israeli occupation/oppression.
The disease is Israeli & U.S. lawlessness - the hypocrisy of our
democracy - and The Cure is the international community, especially the
United States, forcing Israel to comply with the 65+ U.N. Resolutions
Israel is in violation of. There's your "Peace Plan" : FOLLOW THE LAW!
bombing" then things could get better? That seems to be Sherri's point.
If Palestinians would just stop the suicide bombings, then Israelis
would stop killing Palestinians?
If Palestinians would just stop the suicide bombings, then the world
community will come to Palestinians' rescue?
(12/27) My point is what I said before:
I'm not sending "suicide bombers" to die. I prefer no Palestinians or
Israelis to die.
I do understand Palestinian "suicide bombers" are a by-product of
Israeli oppression and occupation - not a by-product of themselves.
"Suicide bombers" are not a solution, but a symptom of decades of
hopelessness and Israeli occupation/oppression.
The disease is Israeli & U.S. lawlessness - the hypocrisy of our
democracy - and The Cure is the international community, especially the
United States, forcing Israel to comply with the 65+ U.N. Resolutions
Israel is in violation of. There's your "Peace Plan" : FOLLOW THE LAW!
(12/28) It seems we've created a micro-cosmic mini Palestine here that seems
to mirror what's going on in Palestine many times. Some think
ending violence is the best way, others think continuing
in military and physical struggle is the right path to take.
Both factions prefer peace, yet it escapes from everyone, each
blaming the approach of the other for the failing to obtain their
objectives.
There's some action along both lines, both peaceful and violent, yet
nothing is accomplished that frees the Palestinians from their daily
strife and struggle. Such is the nature of this beast.
One thing for sure, this 'dividedness' is part of the problem
in achieving victory for the Palestinians. The lack of a clear
and well defined plan that everyone agrees on makes moving forward
more difficult. Following International Law would soon lead to peace,
yet that is far too simple/difficult for Israel to do, as they covet
the land of the Palestians and for all these years have been
stealing it bit by bit.
I'd like to see the Palestinians win or at least obtain a decent
settlement (no pun intended)in this situation, if there are to be
no "winners" in this. To Continue as it's been for the past years
only wears more heavily on everyone. I would hope that a clear
direction and plan that will be followed by everyone can be made and
followed. Otherwise, resources and lives will continue to be wasted
by everyone involved in this.
Hopefully, the new Palestinian leadership will be able to overcome
these obstacles and obtain a decent settlement if it is at all
possible. My best wishes to whoever shall be chosen to lead. May he
lead the Palestinian people to safety and security.
Mik
to mirror what's going on in Palestine many times. Some think
ending violence is the best way, others think continuing
in military and physical struggle is the right path to take.
Both factions prefer peace, yet it escapes from everyone, each
blaming the approach of the other for the failing to obtain their
objectives.
There's some action along both lines, both peaceful and violent, yet
nothing is accomplished that frees the Palestinians from their daily
strife and struggle. Such is the nature of this beast.
One thing for sure, this 'dividedness' is part of the problem
in achieving victory for the Palestinians. The lack of a clear
and well defined plan that everyone agrees on makes moving forward
more difficult. Following International Law would soon lead to peace,
yet that is far too simple/difficult for Israel to do, as they covet
the land of the Palestians and for all these years have been
stealing it bit by bit.
I'd like to see the Palestinians win or at least obtain a decent
settlement (no pun intended)in this situation, if there are to be
no "winners" in this. To Continue as it's been for the past years
only wears more heavily on everyone. I would hope that a clear
direction and plan that will be followed by everyone can be made and
followed. Otherwise, resources and lives will continue to be wasted
by everyone involved in this.
Hopefully, the new Palestinian leadership will be able to overcome
these obstacles and obtain a decent settlement if it is at all
possible. My best wishes to whoever shall be chosen to lead. May he
lead the Palestinian people to safety and security.
Mik
12/28 - These direct and oblique personal attacks are getting no one
anywhere. Is there some way we can shift this topic to one of
showing how 'non violence' or "direct fighting" might achieve
victory for the Palestinians?
Are there any other possibilities that might be considered?
Mik
anywhere. Is there some way we can shift this topic to one of
showing how 'non violence' or "direct fighting" might achieve
victory for the Palestinians?
Are there any other possibilities that might be considered?
Mik
12/28 - Good point Ron....how can we get our American government to obey
International Law? How can we get our American government to get
Israel to obey International Law?
Talking to the State Department, Congressmen and Senators has so far
gotten us nowhere, as they prefer to back Israel in it's agenda. I'm
not sure if AIPAC being turned inside out by the FBI will change
things one iota or not, but it may help.
We're faced with the problem of Israeli's coming over, to say
nothing of dual citizenshippers, and writing US Policy. Our
President lauds the AEI group, and they're among the worst offenders
in this area. JINSA might be another Think Tank that's so pro Israel
they can see nothing else.
How do we free our country from these folks?
Mik
International Law? How can we get our American government to get
Israel to obey International Law?
Talking to the State Department, Congressmen and Senators has so far
gotten us nowhere, as they prefer to back Israel in it's agenda. I'm
not sure if AIPAC being turned inside out by the FBI will change
things one iota or not, but it may help.
We're faced with the problem of Israeli's coming over, to say
nothing of dual citizenshippers, and writing US Policy. Our
President lauds the AEI group, and they're among the worst offenders
in this area. JINSA might be another Think Tank that's so pro Israel
they can see nothing else.
How do we free our country from these folks?
Mik
12/28 - Would you say that Israeli mom's are "raising their children to be
murderous IDF/IOF men, Tanya?
As one who's 'lived by the sword' in the military, it's not something
that mothers and fathers raise their children for, but in military
struggles, it's just something that happens...
One of these days humanity will wake up, wise up, and beat their
swords into plowshares and fast cars, but until then, no one will
accept being bludgeoned to death, and having their land stolen by an
insatiable enemy who wishes to kill not only the fighters, but ones
whole family without a fight to the death.
Whether the weapons chosen for the fight are weapons of violence
and pain, or non violent resistance is for those who are fighting to
decide. Still, if ones non Violence is yet met with more violence
and theft, how long will people continue in non violence? At some
point, enough is enough.
Mik
murderous IDF/IOF men, Tanya?
As one who's 'lived by the sword' in the military, it's not something
that mothers and fathers raise their children for, but in military
struggles, it's just something that happens...
One of these days humanity will wake up, wise up, and beat their
swords into plowshares and fast cars, but until then, no one will
accept being bludgeoned to death, and having their land stolen by an
insatiable enemy who wishes to kill not only the fighters, but ones
whole family without a fight to the death.
Whether the weapons chosen for the fight are weapons of violence
and pain, or non violent resistance is for those who are fighting to
decide. Still, if ones non Violence is yet met with more violence
and theft, how long will people continue in non violence? At some
point, enough is enough.
Mik
12/28 - Whenever a Palestinian child is born,
We win
Whenever that child goes to school,
We win
Whenever a Palestinian child excels,
We win
Whenever a Palestinian child graduates,
We win
Whenever a Palestinian graduates college
We win
Whenever a Palestinian becomes a professional (doctor, lawyer, engineer, and so on)
We win
Whenever he or she gets married,
We win
Whenever there is a Palestinian wedding,
We win
Whenever he or she has Palestinian children of their own,
We win!!!
Whenever I take my 3 children back home to Palestine and see their eyes light up upon seeing their “homeland”,
We win
Whenever my children answer “Beit Hanina, Palestine ”, when they are asked where they come from, although they were born right here in Michigan ,
We win!!!
Whenever Palestinian children, who are born and raised in America , decide to send their Eid money to Palestinian refugees instead of spending it toys and video games,
We Win!
The point is, WE WIN by just existing! We win by being steadfast in the face of overwhelming odds! We win, by facing these odds, and yet keeping our humanity intact!
We win because a less resilient and resolute people would have ceased to exist long ago, consigned to the trash heap of history!
Whenever a mother endures unbearable pain and anguish, just so that her children are fed and educated,
We win!
I need not look no farther than my own Palestinian mother, who was married at 13, was a refugee on 3 different occasions, braved 2 wars, raised 6 children on her own in a male dominated society in very harsh times, although illiterate, could teach the most educated of men a few things, fought against crooked lawyers and Israeli officials and kept most of our family lands intact, even though on many occasions, they tried to take advantage of her!
Hanni
12/28 - Right here in the good old USA we hear of fathers and mothers speaking of the pride they feel sending their sons and daughter to fight for their country, even though they are fighting a war many thousands of miles away and one that is not directly threatening this country! I have heard MANY American fathers say that they will gladly send their children to fight and die for their country!
I reject much of what Tanya has written. She does not take the context in which some remarks are made!
Mike
12/28 - We win when it's least expected that we stand together, advocate for non-violence (because they want to label us as violent animals) and organize a movement so strong--one message repeated over and over again. Message: International laws to be abided and non-violent resistance--what would that look like... the road to concessions, I hope. Then those Congresspeople and organized lobbies will be dumbfounded and try to re-strategize on how to thwart our efforts. We in the States should rise up to the challenge because we are not suffering the same way.
Saffiya
12/28 - I am glad that you brought this up:
How many of you on this list have written or made an attempt to meet with your congressional representatives?
They should be hearing from you on a regular basis, even if its just to “educate them”!
How many have taken the time to write at least ONE letter to the Editor of your hometown or national paper?
It's easy belonging to these discussion groups, while doing nothing else! These discussion groups should be a source of inspiration and information so that you might be able to be more effective in your own activism! We here in America still can't seem to understand and learn how the “game is played in this country”…
I really can't help but shake my head and laugh when a member of one of these discussion lists threatens to leave and or reiterates that they are “wasting their time by being here”! No one is forcing anyone to be here or on any other list. We are here for ONE reason and ONE reason only:
To help and support the Palestinian people in their JUST and LEGITIMATE struggle for freedom!
Our own sense of “self importance” means absolutely NOTHING. In the end, we are all guided by our convictions and our own conscience…
Just my 2 “cents” worth…Not shekels!
Mike
12/28 - Tanya, don't you think the Palestinians are demonized enough without adding to it. Well-educated people have committed the worst crimes against humanity while many Palestinian mothers are no different than many mothers of soldiers who are proud of sending their children off to fight, kill and die for reasons that don't even make sense and who do not live under oppressive conditions, yet no one calls that "despicable." Marlene
12/28 - The dialogue of the deaf I believe my dear friends that you have reached with your dialogue on the question concerning suicide bombings, or what others call martyr operations, to a dead end, or what is known as: "The dialogue of the deaf" May I suggest that you discuss the question of Zionist atrocities, and consider that when they import young Jews from around the world, pollute their brains with Zionist racialism, put them in military fatigue and send them to kill the occupied indigenous population of Palestine and be killed, that this is more then suicide bombing???!!! Or put an end to this lub lub? Noting that some of the participants in this dialogue are equalizing between the occupier and the occupied, between the persecutor and the persecuted... and between the invaders and the resistance Palestinian Arabs face them with???
Tanya writes 12/28 - This exists, and it's despicable. But there *are* people, well educated and
very well off, who would do this?
It is only partly, according to them, to do with Israel . ”
very well off, who would do this?
It is only partly, according to them, to do with Israel . ”
12/28 - So you mean to tell me that “it is only partly to do with Israel ” that there are suicide bombers? So people kill themselves for sport? Or is it a “defect” in their makeup? Or maybe, they are just “barbarians and beasts” who possess no redeeming qualities as human beings? Or maybe they are not as advanced as the western culture, the very same culture and societies that gave us the crusades, the Holocaust, 2 World Wars, and the murder of over 3 million innocent people in Vietnam and other places, just to name a few!
In the past, I have tried to understand your often erroneous and misguided views, BUT you are totally out of line and DEAD wrong! Palestinian mothers DO NOT breed suicide bombers. You are taking the Zionist party line when you state such utter nonsense. I have seen many times over, when a Palestinian mother loses a son to an Israeli terrorist (yes they are terrorists in every sense of the word) and in that very emotional moment, they say things that are taken out of context, recorded and replayed and quoted ENDLES SL Y by Zionists and their sympathizers in the media, by Evangelical fanatics, and most effectively, by HonestReporting's propaganda “documentary”, Relentless, which has been touring the country and being screened and supported by the Christian Zionists!
In fact, you repeated, word for word, the same things that I have seen in the Zionist propaganda “documentary”!
NO Palestinian mother or father would ever choose death over a normal life for their children, a life that offers hope and a better tomorrow. No Palestinian mother would choose death over life for her children, NO matter what you and the Zionists say!
You underestimate and discount the love that Palestinian mothers have for their children as if they were “less” than other mothers in the world. In fact, I really have yet to see ANY mothers, who are as loving, caring, and willing to sacrifice as much as Palestinian mothers.
Palestinian mothers are often placed in the most difficult of circumstances imaginable. They endure hardships that you or any one else that is NOT living there can imagine.
In 1967, my own mother braved Israeli gunfire and humiliation just so that she could get us some water and a little bit of flour so that we would not starve as we sought refuge in scorpion infested caves for over 3 weeks. In 1967, my PALESTINIAN MOTHER stood between an Israeli soldier's machine gun and my older brother, telling the Israeli soldier he would have to kill her FIRST, before killing her child in front of her eyes!
My Palestinian mother was by no means “unique”, in fact, she more accurately represented Palestinian mothers than the demonizing nature of what you wrote!
During the first Intifada, whenever Israeli soldiers would try to arrest a Palestinian boy, Palestinian women who happened to be standing by would fight with the soldiers and prevent his arrest or beating by shielding him and saying that they were his MOTHER. This happened so often that an Israeli commander once lamented to the Palestinian women (about 5 of them who were claiming the young Palestinian as their son) “Do all Palestinian children have more than one mother?” To which a Palestinian mother answered, “Yes”, Palestinian children have many mothers, while you, the Israeli soldiers, have MANY fathers”…
Mike
12/28 - what the?????? hmmmm........Tanya's western mind has come into full view........thank you for revealing your true point of view.....now I understand Tanya; certainly Tanya means well and wants peace for everyone.........that's good........but, and it's a big butt, clearly Tanya knows NOT of the personal feelings of oppression and anger at having your family members killed by Israeli occupying forces, or knowing you can never return to your homeland, or knowing that the incredibly difficult life on the ground in Palestine is not going to change in their lifetimes; Tanya could easily envision herself walking into a Palestinian classroom with George Bush and walking to the front of the classroom and telling the teacher and kids: "No teacher, stop teaching those children to hate and fight your Israeli oppressors/rapists and killers. You should just accept this U.S. sponsored violence and systematic destruction of your homes and flesh. How dare you complain of your abuse? You're abusing the Israelis and your own kids, by fighting back....do not resist......just take this Israeli genocide with a coke and a smile. It's all your fault........stop discussng how Israelis have killed your family members and committed one of history's nastiest genocidal oppressions ever. Stop discussing your reality amongst yourselves, and just sit quitely and don't ever fight back this Israeli occupation." Tanya must not have ever heard of the six degrees of separation......I think Tanya has 600 degrees of separation between her and Palestinian reality -death and heartache by Israel. Tanya doesn't realize that for most Palestinians, there are no degrees of separation.....virtually every Palestinian has a family member who has been killed, wounded and/or personally or systematically abused by Israelis.........Tanya is viewing the plight of Palestinians through western glasses, dripping with Zionist rhetoric. Tanya doesn't realize that every single solitary act of violence by Palestinians is very much lawful and of a defensive nature. Apparently, Tanya doesn't realize who the aggressor is, and who the victim is..........no surprise there.......very typical of westerners.............Tanya would make a good Republican...........r o n
12/28 - ...I don't want to take sides in this but i have to say all what is happening to do with this is VERY NORMAL....we all come from diffrent backgrounds and have been raised in our families in diffrent ways from the other....and no two minds are the same....this is the people in this group and the world in general....we have diffrent minds so that we can complete each other as no one is an island whole of themselves! unfortunatley in this group it is obvious not only that we are diffrent people but some have diffrent intentions to why one would join this group... however i do second Adib's opinion here.....instead of focusing on those poor humans who've lived lifeless lives and died in that way terrible...we can help stop further by doing things like picking out a few crimes and asking the murders to be brought to justice as that way no one will think "i should take justice into my own hands as it doesn't exist in this dark world!"...such the killing of ordinary humans has become routine (And i remeber someone warning not to let that happen the second week of the intifada started...unfortunatley no one listens to people who make sense!) a few crimes more horrendous that others in natures can be picked like the shooting in the head of those two babies a 6 month year old and a 3 month year old baby boy in Hebron in summer 3 years ago.....and then work the way to get all the other criminals to a true justice..........until that happens in a world that infants so young get shot in the head what kind of hope exactly do we give to the teenaged and young adults of the family of the children killed that way??? anyway......just this and no need to get angry on anyone or gang up on anyone or getting a high blood pressure at anything.....we're diffrent people and everything about us diffrent so discord is only natural...... just my opinion........and i again i say what Adib said here i agree with.
12/28 - I see all the anger at Tanya for what she wrote. I hate to say this but I have heard some people say the same thing... they'd send their children to die. They say it, I believe, out of frustration. The few that have made it to the airwaves have been exploited to the full extent. It's ugly to see and taken out of context. Remember the video (I saw it in the U.S.) of the mother saying goodbye knowing her son that was going on a suicide mission--that's what they made us think anyway and shortly after Laura Bush said that she does not feel sorry for Palestinian mothers that send their children to die--or something like that. Those people are the exception... not the rule and maybe what was said or videoed was taken out of context--maybe not. The whole situation was brought about by the brutal occupation in my opinion.
Also, religion has a lot to do with it too. Palestine is not Islamic only and I think those that have done a lot of the violence against innocents are Muslims on a mission from God. When in fact it is so against Islam to do such a thing to oneself and others. That is how I was raised as a Muslim. I personally, don't think the Prophet (pbuh) would advocate for such a thing.
Saffiya
12/28 - I can say that I have and I have also initiated letter writing campaigns to both Senators from my state and gotten responses. I have gotten meetings with two Congresspeople and I also attended meetings with the State Dept., the House and Senate in DC through AAI in DC. I was able to address concerns directly to some of our elected officials with a group of like-minded people. It's easy to get involved but it's not easy to hold your temper and unfortunately, someone in the crowd started shouting and we all look like goofs. It's better these days because people are realizing the power of the pen and a calm demeanor. I encourage everyone to write letters to their papers (it's being done a lot) and organizing groups of people to visit their representatives.
The saddest thing to me was recently when I visited my Congressman, he said that "your people are interested in being American." He didn't view others that came in to see him as American and interested in any common issues. I'm sure that doesn't happen when pro-Israeli's visit but they are probably much more polished on their approach as well as much more united and well connected. One-on-one doesn't work with elected officials, they need to see a unified front.
Saffiya
12/28 - bull......bullcookies.......blame it on religion, instead of Israeli oppression....this is why I call you a westerner. you must be........you probably just got back from Target and Chili's. .r o n
12/28 - Let me ask you this Saffiya, since Israeli's have 'no problems'
with being violence animals and can care less about those who see
their ugliness, in fact taking great pride in their ugliness,
promoting the ugliest and most murderous to the highest offices in
their government, why should Palestinians be concerned about what
they are being called while they are being murdered by the truely
murderous animals, the Zionists?
Just type "Israeli Terrorism" into your search engine, and there
will appear many references to the history of the terrorist
activities of the "Jewish State" that so many Jews are running to
become members of.
Mik
with being violence animals and can care less about those who see
their ugliness, in fact taking great pride in their ugliness,
promoting the ugliest and most murderous to the highest offices in
their government, why should Palestinians be concerned about what
they are being called while they are being murdered by the truely
murderous animals, the Zionists?
Just type "Israeli Terrorism" into your search engine, and there
will appear many references to the history of the terrorist
activities of the "Jewish State" that so many Jews are running to
become members of.
Mik
12/28 - Why don't you, Ron, six months in to this arena of politics, stop digging when you're in the hole?
I've been involved with this for 20 years almost, so you only make yourself look utterly foolish by spreading this wherever you think you will have an audience.
Yeah yeah, I know nothing. You know everything. Good luck.
Tanya
I've been involved with this for 20 years almost, so you only make yourself look utterly foolish by spreading this wherever you think you will have an audience.
Yeah yeah, I know nothing. You know everything. Good luck.
Tanya
12/28 - typical American housewife-style response..........typical American snubbery.......you don't know my experience....how can you assign me six months experience when you don't know my experience? I was locked in solitary confinement in an American jail for reading a Muslim book banned in Texas.......I became Muslim in prison in the 1990's. I did over four years in a Texas penitentiary. I don't call myself a Muslim today......personal reasons........but I do understand the issues.....in fact, you don't have to be Muslim to understand who the lawbreakers are in this instance. You sound terribly frustrated and one-dimensional........r o n On Dec 28, 2004, at 11:54 AM, Tanya C. Hsu wrote: > Why don't you, Ron, six months in to this arena of politics, stop > digging when you're in the hole? > > I've been involved with this for 20 years almost, so you only make > yourself look utterly foolish by spreading this wherever you think you > will have an audience. > > Yeah yeah, I know nothing. You know everything. Good luck. > > Tanya
12/28 - This is my point Mik.
Raise one issue that's taboo, and god help you....turn it around and put it to the other side.
You know, Lenni Brenner did a marvellous thing. In his 51 Documents he spoke openly and publicly about the Jews who helped Hitler in WWII. This was a subject that Jews knew about but hid. I mentioned the book to a Jewish “half Zionist” friend of mine, who never wants to talk about politics. After three glasses of wine she broke down crying and admitted that her father was one of them. He rounded up the Jews, his own people, and put them on the trains.
Her secret had come out. But when I mentioned it to another Jewish friend...oh no, that didn't happen. It could never happen, don't talk about it, you are anti-Semitic Tanya. Never speak of this again.
Okay, stick your heads in the sand. Fine by me.
Raise one issue that's taboo, and god help you....turn it around and put it to the other side.
You know, Lenni Brenner did a marvellous thing. In his 51 Documents he spoke openly and publicly about the Jews who helped Hitler in WWII. This was a subject that Jews knew about but hid. I mentioned the book to a Jewish “half Zionist” friend of mine, who never wants to talk about politics. After three glasses of wine she broke down crying and admitted that her father was one of them. He rounded up the Jews, his own people, and put them on the trains.
Her secret had come out. But when I mentioned it to another Jewish friend...oh no, that didn't happen. It could never happen, don't talk about it, you are anti-Semitic Tanya. Never speak of this again.
Okay, stick your heads in the sand. Fine by me.
Don't I? 12/28
How on earth do you possibly know?
Tanya
How on earth do you possibly know?
Tanya
Why is it amusing to you that people are tired of the bickering?
12/28 - Why do you assume that I or others don't spend our own money flying around the country, flying to the Middle East, talking every day to politicians, talking every other day to representatives in the region? I don't tell anyone here who I met with, who I spoke with, or where I'm going. Mention one thing and people caustically remark that I'm the sole representative of the PNA ha ha, so tell me....What is the point?
Why do you think that many of us don't work, hard core, daily, get paid for and not paid for both, for change? How do you know I don't put in 12 hours a day 7 days a week and have done for years in promoting trade, medical relief, travel assistance, diplomatic relations, etc.?
The nerve of some people is astounding.
Write one message here and one doesn't do anything?
It's insulting.
Tanya
12/28 - Why do you assume that I or others don't spend our own money flying around the country, flying to the Middle East, talking every day to politicians, talking every other day to representatives in the region? I don't tell anyone here who I met with, who I spoke with, or where I'm going. Mention one thing and people caustically remark that I'm the sole representative of the PNA ha ha, so tell me....What is the point?
Why do you think that many of us don't work, hard core, daily, get paid for and not paid for both, for change? How do you know I don't put in 12 hours a day 7 days a week and have done for years in promoting trade, medical relief, travel assistance, diplomatic relations, etc.?
The nerve of some people is astounding.
Write one message here and one doesn't do anything?
It's insulting.
Tanya
12/28 - It's got nothing to do with demonising. It has everything to do with stop yelling and screaming and blaming every one else for all, and I mean all, of Palestine's woes.
Some people there need to look in the mirror.
Bring up one tiny issue and all hell breaks lose. What does that say about people here?
Tanya
Some people there need to look in the mirror.
Bring up one tiny issue and all hell breaks lose. What does that say about people here?
Tanya
12/28 - How many so-called "militants" by Israeli standards were turned in or set-up to be assassinated by family, neighbors, etc? A sad situation indeed. However, if we are able to look at this and understand why it happens, we will be better able to strategize on how to end it--leadership on the ground there. I agree with Tanya, when we don't like looking at something we attack the messenger... not the message. I don't think Tanya wants to see the Palestinians wiped out or blames them for their problems, she's just discussing a point that we know exists on some levels. We tend to explain it away. We have to overcome our own demons before we overcome the ones out to get us. It's just a horrific time for Palestinians and it's hard to look at or hear what ills them because of the overwhelming force against them. It doesn't make one unhelpful or evil. It's an appropriate discussion for the list.
12/28 - Do we become like them... no way. I care about my people and their place in history and the world now. I want my children to see a free Palestine. I want them to visit their home there. Ours is a noble and I don't like it be tainted by violence and stereotypes that don't fit it. That's my opinion. I see your point, but I don't agree. I would not be proud of a history like the Israeli's. Saffiya
12/28 - Tanya knows NOT of the personal feelings of oppression and anger at
> having your family members killed by Israeli occupying forces, or
> knowing you can never return to your homeland, or knowing that the
> incredibly difficult life on the ground in Palestine is not going to
> change in their lifetimes;
Do you?
> having your family members killed by Israeli occupying forces, or
> knowing you can never return to your homeland, or knowing that the
> incredibly difficult life on the ground in Palestine is not going to
> change in their lifetimes;
Do you?
12/28 - zionist dribble............clearly transparent............r o n
12/28 - I hate to say this but I have heard some people say the same thing... they'd send their children to die. They say it, I believe, out of frustration....Those people are the exception... not the rule and maybe what was said or videoed was taken out of context--maybe not. The whole situation was brought about by the brutal occupation in my opinion. Also, religion has a lot to do with it too. Palestine is not Islamic only and I think those that have done a lot of the violence against innocents are Muslims on a mission from God. When in fact it is so against Islam to do such a thing to oneself and others.
100% correct Saffiya. Exactly.
Tanya
100% correct Saffiya. Exactly.
Tanya
Sad 12/28
12/28 - I remember when Laura Bush said that she doesn't feel sorry for Palestinian mothers that send their children to die, but I wonder how she feels about her husband sending other's mother's children to die in Iraq because he's on a mission from God fighting against "evil," armed with nothing but a bunch of lies. It makes me also wonder why the world singles out Muslims as fanatics, especially Palestinians who have been subjected to nothing but humiliation and brutality. Marlene
12/28 - as a non-palestinian and a sharp observer from the side lines. I noticed many non-palestinians better swerving palestine than some palestinians themselves. I will use name but both cases are found on this list. Horst
12/28 - There is absolutely no doubt that the violence of the past decade has undermined and harmed the Palestinian cause ... In Feb. 2004, settler Baruch Goldstein murdered 29 Muslims at prayer in al-Khalil (Hebron) ... the world was outraged at the attack and Israel was under pressure ... and then six weeks later, Hamas launched its own attack in response, a suicide bombing at a civilian target What Hamas did was "one-up" Goldstein ... they overshadowned the viciousness of his killing with the viciousness of their own ... More importantly, in my opinion, Hamas is an organization that has never been elected to represent anyone, let alone the Palestinians ... it makes its own decisions not for the good of the Palestinians for for the good of its own message, which is a religious message that is as anti-Christian as it is anti-Muslim ... Islam does not preach violence and neither does Christianity ... but both allow you to defend yourself when your life is directly threatened ... neither allows anyone to avenge anything, to seek revenge or to be driven by vengeance ... Those who kill in the name of any religion or murderers not martyrs. The problem is an issue of relativity ... Israel's Likud government is a government of terrorists and murderers mostly ... Hamas is an organization of terrorists and murderers, mostly. The Likud is clever about how it kills ... Hamas is not. It doesn't care about public opinion, Israel does. Yet, public opinion inn the world: created Israel undermined the Palestinians enslaves the Arab and Muslim worlds continues to deny Palestinian rights Violence has gotten us nothing except more suffering. Palestine is being slowly erased by the extremists in Israel (and I do not view Israelis as bad people at all ... I view politics as good or bad, leaders as good or bad, and view the public often as victims). You can only use violence so far to achieve goals: either you use it to win a conflict, or you use it to reposition yourself in a broader world context (Sun Tzu) ... you never use violence unless it produces a specific end result that benefits you. Under the Palestinian Revolution, violence was used to reinforce the Palestinian peoples' will to stand up to Israel rather than waiting for the Arab tyrants to do anything, and to redefine the Palestinian cause. We do exist. We do have rights. We cannot be ignored. Since we could not win a war with Israel, violence had reached its strategic maximum value. The next logical move was the move Arafat made in 1988 to enter into negotiations with Israel, which has won nearly every war it has fought right off the bat ... it can't be defeated militarily and it exists in conflict and is strongest in conflict ... it is weakest when it is cast as the aggressor ... as long as Hamas one-ups Israel with a form of violence that is "viewed by the world" as more immoral and more ghastly than anything else, suicide bombings -- and I agree with that assessment -- the pressure is off Israel ... So, I guess I should thank the suicide bombers and the murderers who sent these young people to kill themselves in order to kill innocent Israeli civilians who have never done anything to hurt Palestinians except be Jewish or Israeli, for helping Israel to build all those settlements the world now says Israel can keep ... Or, hasn't anyone been noticing what's been happening while we debate? Ray Hanania
12/28 - Sherri is a farsi name , persian name , famous by the 1001 nights tales. but who is Raja ??? Horst
12/28 - I don't think it's "the world" that's letting Israel
keep it's settlements as much as it's Ariel Sharon's sock
puppet, George Bush and the cadre of Zionist supporting Congressmen
who are doing it. If it wasn't for the US veto power at the UN,
I'm sure Israel would be back inside it's 1967 borders by now.
Yet US foreign aide to many has bought their silence, and in being
silent, it has lead to Israel being allowed to go it's merry way.
Hopefully, that will not be forever. Not the way it is going now.
Even the Jewish prophets speak out against what the Zionists are
doing, and God shall not be mocked.
Mik
keep it's settlements as much as it's Ariel Sharon's sock
puppet, George Bush and the cadre of Zionist supporting Congressmen
who are doing it. If it wasn't for the US veto power at the UN,
I'm sure Israel would be back inside it's 1967 borders by now.
Yet US foreign aide to many has bought their silence, and in being
silent, it has lead to Israel being allowed to go it's merry way.
Hopefully, that will not be forever. Not the way it is going now.
Even the Jewish prophets speak out against what the Zionists are
doing, and God shall not be mocked.
Mik
12/29 -On Friday, December 17 th , I posted on this list and others, the Hanan Ashrawi interview that was carried in the Dec. 17 th issue of the Israeli paper, Haaretz. At that time, I thought that people on this list as well as other lists would be interested to read the thoughts of Ashrawi and her comments.
Since then, I have seen the discussion on this list go from discussing this piece, to arguing against the Right of Return, to blaming and accusing the Palestinian leadership and Arafat for conspiring to prevent people from getting urgently needed medical treatment, to discussing suicide bombings and morality, to blaming Palestinian mothers and fathers for “breeding suicide bombers”…
In 11 days, we managed to inject many things that really had no thread whatsoever in my original posting of the Ashrawi interview. I posted the very same interview on other lists, BUT they didn't elicit the same byproducts that we ended up with!
I guess, I would have not been very active in this discussion ( I rarely get caught up in these things) if it were not for Tanya's post about medical treatment which accused the PA (Palestinian Authority) with preventing people from getting the medical help they needed!
The reason I came out swinging on this issue is because her baseless accusations and the topic hit VERY close to home…
In 2002, during Eid Aludha prayers at the Beit Hanina Mosque, my 65 years old uncle (although an American citizen, he moved back home in 1997) collapsed in the Mosque. My brother and other family members called for an Israeli Ambulance (since he lived in Beit Hanina, he was under direct Israeli control and jurisdiction because Beit Hanina is considered part of Jerusalem ). The Israeli ambulance REFUSED to come to the mosque to get him. The Israelis had erected a temporary checkpoint on the main road that connected Beit Hanina and Jerusalem for the Eid celebrations and to prevent people from crossing to the Old City and praying at Al-Aqsa.
Instead my brother and my cousins were instructed to take him to the nearest checkpoint in their own car and there, the Israeli ambulance would pick him up. After arriving at the checkpoint, they were held up for an additional 15 PRECIOUS minutes before they were allowed them to take him to the waiting Israeli ambulance, which was only about 20 meters away. In the meantime, he slipped in to a coma, which he never woke up from! The Israeli doctors who treated him at Haddassa kept asking why they had waited so long to get him emergency medical care! They told my mother, that her brother would have survived if in fact, they were able to treat him earlier or if he had the urgent attention that he needed when he fell…
After arriving at the hospital, the Israeli authorities then made my brother and cousins come up with 10,000 Shekels (about $2300) as up front payment for his treatment and made them sign papers stating that they would be responsible for all medical treatment he receives. He was in Hadassa for about 9 days before he died. He never did awake from his coma…
NOW, my 87 years old father in law is sick and needs an emergency procedure that they could not perform in Ramallah. After 2 weeks of delays and waiting, my sister in-laws were finally able to “smuggle him” into Jerusalem where he will be undergoing an operation on Thursday. The doctors have stated that he will have a 50/50 chance of survival because of the delay…Some of you who have been reading my writings know all about my father in-law. I posted a piece about him a while back titled “Hussein from Lifta”…
If my father in-law would have been caught in the car of his grandson, his grandson would have been fined and his car would have been confiscated for 30 days for the “offense” of transporting a person with a West Bank ID card in his “ Jerusalem licensed” car. It doesn't matter if he was transporting his mother, father, brother, or a total stranger; the fine would have been the same…
I did not write this to elicit anyone's sympathy, and to be frank, I really do not need or want it! I just thought that people on this list, might at least know where I was coming from…
Mike
12/29 - I think the major problem is that the focus has shifted from where it should be. Denial of medical care is well-documented and going back years before there was ever a suicide bombing (1994), as you can see from Physicians for Human Rights' second report below. The first report from PHR deals with the brutalities inflicted on the Palestinians for resisting the occupation with civil disturbances for which it was reported that Israeli soldiers and police participated in an" uncontrolled epidemic of violence" in the West Bank and Gaza Strip. Both reports can be ordered if anyone is interested. Marlene
Israel and occupied territories
The Casualties of Conflict: Medical Care and Human Rights in the West Bank and Gaza Strip
PHR was the first human rights group to enter Israel shortly after the intifada began. In early 1988, a PHR delegation visited hospitals, blood banks, clinics, and homes in Jerusalem, the West Bank, and the Gaza Strip to investigate the medical consequences of civil disturbances and police and military actions. These actions included systematic beatings and use of high-velocity live ammunition, tear gas, and rubber bullets. The team examined and interviewed 103 patients, most of whom had been wounded within the preceding 24 hours and had similar wound patterns. This landmark report details the team's medical findings and concludes that Israeli soldiers and police participated in an uncontrolled epidemic of violence in the West Bank and Gaza Strip.
"A dramatic survey of the physical and psychological damage deliberately inflicted on thousands of Palestinians."
The Washington Post
The Washington Post
March 30, 1988, 46 pages $6.00 CODE: ISRCOFC
Human Rights on Hold: A Report on Emergency Measures and Access to Health Care in the Occupied Territories 1990—1992
Since the beginning of the Palestinian intifada in December 1987, Israeli soldiers and security personnel have used excessive force, including beatings, indiscriminate shootings, and inappropriate use of toxic gas, against the nearly two million Palestinians who live in the West Bank and Gaza Strip. They have also curtailed access to health care by restricting the movement of health personnel, closing pharmacies and clinics, blocking ambulances, obstructing access to medical care for critically-ill patients, and forcibly entering medical facilities. PHR conducted two studies — one in July 1990 of 24 Palestinian families in refugee camps and villages, and one in May 1991 of 44 families — to survey the cumulative effects of these abuses. The report concludes by calling on the Israeli government to establish and implement clear policies of restraint on the use of force and to lift restrictions on health personnel and health institutions in the West Bank and Gaza.
June 1993, 91 pages ISBN 1-879707-09-8, $10.00 CODE: ISRHRO
12/29 - You are correct. I feel that the Moderators should establish just 5 objectives for this list to follow and if the postings do not conform to the objectives the posts should not be published. The recent article by the BBC that was posted regarding the Cold War has nothing to do with Palestine. As we know, the Zionist state in the Middle East is the only State that has WMDs. This should continue to be our focus in addition to the daily hardships of the Palestinian people, their absolute right to return to the 1967 and the 1948 borders.
12/29 - Tanya, I use the word "demonization" because it reflects what the media usually reports on the Palestinians and needs to be vigorously countered by placing the focus where it belongs. No, Palestinians are not perfect, but it is a lot to even function rationally when anyone would be subjected to such daily systematic violence, abuse and humiliation. I've been watching the news and horrible destruction and loss of lives caused by the Tsunami, an uncontrollable force of nature, but I could not help thinking about the Palestinians who have lost their homes by human hands, and the indifference to it. Marlene
12/29 - Mike, I thought you were coming from a fine place all along.
I heard some justifiably righteous indignation, and that's fine.
I've seen far too many articles about the jackels who claim to be
Jews and Israeli's not only allowing pregnant mothers to die giving
birth at these 'checkpoints' but tormenting them verbally while they
are dying in the process of giving birth.
I wish your father in law well as he faces surgery. May he come thru
it fine!!!
Mik
I heard some justifiably righteous indignation, and that's fine.
I've seen far too many articles about the jackels who claim to be
Jews and Israeli's not only allowing pregnant mothers to die giving
birth at these 'checkpoints' but tormenting them verbally while they
are dying in the process of giving birth.
I wish your father in law well as he faces surgery. May he come thru
it fine!!!
Mik
12/29 - ron harold has stated
a) palestinians are not on the wrong side of th law, and have not
volated the law. even those you refer to as "suicide bombers" are not
illegal.
b) every single solitary act of violence by palestinains is very much
lawful.
ron harold claims that the geneva convention allows these acts of
violence.
obviously he has not read this document.
while giving those under occupation the right to retaliate it also
imposes some restaints on those acts.
among them being no acts on those who are not involved in th4e
occuaption. as far as i know children are not under any circumstance
involved actively in any occupation.
so therefore the acts of violence against isreali children do indeed
violate the 4th geneva convention as well as the convention on the
rights of the child.
ron harolds remarks deliberately and with foresight deny israeli
children of their human rights. and yet not one post has contradicted
him on this point. so everyone who posted after these remarks and the
moderators who knew of these remarks also beleive that israeli
children have no human rights.
12/29 - I'm sorry, you're wrong. .......btw, no one wants to see Israeli or Palestinian children die. The Geneva Conventions clearly states the occupied may evict the occupiers ".......by any means necessary." I remind you Israel initiated war on the Palestinians with their unlawful occupation of Palestine - Israel kept war on Palestine, unlawfully occupying Palestine for over 36 years now, killing Palestinians with American weapons; and 36 years of war has been the result, with children dying on both sides......it's war, it's horrible, it's terrible, but that is what wars have always been. You're howling at the death of Israeli children, but forget this criminal Israeli occupation has killed more Palestinian children than Israeli children - each child is important, so when you cry for Israeli children, cry for the Palestinian children too. I see you're failing to adequately represent this issue: Why aren't you calling for Israel to comply with the 65 U.N. resolutions Israel has been in violation of for 36 years now? Why don't you recognize the need for Israel to comply with the U.N. resolutions ordering Israel out of Palestine? Wouldn't you think the burglar Israel should at least leave the home they broke into? Wouldn't that be the right thing to do? Wouldn't that be a good start? contextually yours, .r o n
a) palestinians are not on the wrong side of th law, and have not
volated the law. even those you refer to as "suicide bombers" are not
illegal.
b) every single solitary act of violence by palestinains is very much
lawful.
ron harold claims that the geneva convention allows these acts of
violence.
obviously he has not read this document.
while giving those under occupation the right to retaliate it also
imposes some restaints on those acts.
among them being no acts on those who are not involved in th4e
occuaption. as far as i know children are not under any circumstance
involved actively in any occupation.
so therefore the acts of violence against isreali children do indeed
violate the 4th geneva convention as well as the convention on the
rights of the child.
ron harolds remarks deliberately and with foresight deny israeli
children of their human rights. and yet not one post has contradicted
him on this point. so everyone who posted after these remarks and the
moderators who knew of these remarks also beleive that israeli
children have no human rights.
12/29 - I'm sorry, you're wrong. .......btw, no one wants to see Israeli or Palestinian children die. The Geneva Conventions clearly states the occupied may evict the occupiers ".......by any means necessary." I remind you Israel initiated war on the Palestinians with their unlawful occupation of Palestine - Israel kept war on Palestine, unlawfully occupying Palestine for over 36 years now, killing Palestinians with American weapons; and 36 years of war has been the result, with children dying on both sides......it's war, it's horrible, it's terrible, but that is what wars have always been. You're howling at the death of Israeli children, but forget this criminal Israeli occupation has killed more Palestinian children than Israeli children - each child is important, so when you cry for Israeli children, cry for the Palestinian children too. I see you're failing to adequately represent this issue: Why aren't you calling for Israel to comply with the 65 U.N. resolutions Israel has been in violation of for 36 years now? Why don't you recognize the need for Israel to comply with the U.N. resolutions ordering Israel out of Palestine? Wouldn't you think the burglar Israel should at least leave the home they broke into? Wouldn't that be the right thing to do? Wouldn't that be a good start? contextually yours, .r o n
12/30.....you don't see Israeli suicide bombers, because Israel has endless American-made weapons to kill with. Here's something for you to contemplate: If Israel didn't have the massive forces and weaponry Israel uses on Palestinians, if Israel didn't have an Air Force, a Navy, Special Forces, M1-A1 Abram tanks, Apache helicopters, nuclear bombs, cruise missiles, Patriot batterys, armored personnel carriers, and one of the world's best-trained forces, would Israeli citizens be lining up to commit suicide bombings on Palestinians? No, they wouldn't. Why? Because Israelis are more humane than Palestinians? No, because Israelis are not living under the incredible (and apparently unimaginable) personal oppression Palestinians have hopelessly lived under, during this 36-year long Israeli occupation of Palestine. Israelis have it too good in their own land to worry about becoming a suicide bomber for their country - they have paid professionals armed with massive American weaponry to do that. I know for me, it's hard to imagine the lifelong, generational oppression Palestinians have endured for decades now. I can't imagine being so despondent over my life and my family's life that I would send my own son to die for my country. It reminds me of Americans sending their own kids to die in Iraq. Americans are willing to send their kids to die, for their cause. Israelis send their kids to die for their cause. But don't let Palestinians send their kids to die for their cause, lest they be called subhuman. Who's committing suicide for their country? I told my friend that if her son joins the Army, that would be like committing suicide, considering how bad Bush and Cheney need fresh, warm bodies for their operations in Iraq. .r o n dallas, texas
12.30 - you are right ron. while nobody likes to see a child injured, or
even sick, if an isreali child gets hurt it is becuse their parents
who allow them to be placed in danger, living on stolen lands in
which the rightful owner wants returned. the isreali parents might
as well let their children play on the highway.
also mr. fearplay, your comments about the moderators on this list
are unfounded and inapropriate. any violence directed towards any
child is absolutley condemed on this list.
even sick, if an isreali child gets hurt it is becuse their parents
who allow them to be placed in danger, living on stolen lands in
which the rightful owner wants returned. the isreali parents might
as well let their children play on the highway.
also mr. fearplay, your comments about the moderators on this list
are unfounded and inapropriate. any violence directed towards any
child is absolutley condemed on this list.
12/30 - I think one of the great problems is that while Palestinians are being taught what the rule of law is, the fact remains that there is no rule of law that applies to the Palestinians that anyone is abiding by, either under the Fourth Geneva Convention or under the Universal Declaration of Human Rights, although Israel is a member of the international community. The only laws that exists are discriminatory laws that apply to Palestinians,and a separate law to illegal Israeli settlers, even though they live in the same territory. The fact is also that Palestinian children are denied any rights from the moment they enter this world, and sometimes one can say while they're still in utero because their mothers are oftentimes denied medical treatment which has led to some of their deaths. Palestinians are an unprotected people. They are not even protected from "civilian" settlers who have plenty of arms and have long engaged in violence and property damage against the Palestinian population while the army simply looks, if they're not busy committing their own violence.
12/30 - ron harold has twice made the statement in his posts that to kill
israeli chldren do not violate international human rights law.
not one person on this list or any of the moderators have siad that
this is wrong.
in other words israeli children do not have human rights and are
therefore not human.
as far as i am personaly concerned it is a racist statement . and
everybody and i do mean everybody agrees with it.
as to why do they do i do not know.
as to the wider issues that ron harold has in his own unique way
pointed out that i did not in any way make mention off.
i am well aware of the dire situation in the middle east. i have been
following the conflict in great detail since 2000. so do not preach
to me. your understanding of the 4th geneva convention is nill.
it clearly states that those who are not taking in any part in the
violence is not to be targetted. those who do so are in violation of
the 4th geneva convention.
i am agains the killing of children. all the children.
i want the violence to stop. all the violence.
i want peace for each and every country in the middle east.
the statement in his posts that to kill
israeli chldren do not violate international human rights law.
not one person on this list or any of the moderators have siad that
this is wrong.
in other words israeli children do not have human rights and are
therefore not human.
as far as i am personaly concerned it is a racist statement . and
everybody and i do mean everybody agrees with it.
as to why do they do i do not know.
as to the wider issues that ron harold has in his own unique way
pointed out that i did not in any way make mention off.
i am well aware of the dire situation in the middle east. i have been
following the conflict in great detail since 2000. so do not preach
to me. your understanding of the 4th geneva convention is nill.
it clearly states that those who are not taking in any part in the
violence is not to be targetted. those who do so are in violation of
the 4th geneva convention.
i am agains the killing of children. all the children.
i want the violence to stop. all the violence.
i want peace for each and every country in the middle east.
israeli chldren do not violate international human rights law.
not one person on this list or any of the moderators have siad that
this is wrong.
in other words israeli children do not have human rights and are
therefore not human.
as far as i am personaly concerned it is a racist statement . and
everybody and i do mean everybody agrees with it.
as to why do they do i do not know.
as to the wider issues that ron harold has in his own unique way
pointed out that i did not in any way make mention off.
i am well aware of the dire situation in the middle east. i have been
following the conflict in great detail since 2000. so do not preach
to me. your understanding of the 4th geneva convention is nill.
it clearly states that those who are not taking in any part in the
violence is not to be targetted. those who do so are in violation of
the 4th geneva convention.
i am agains the killing of children. all the children.
i want the violence to stop. all the violence.
i want peace for each and every country in the middle east.
the statement in his posts that to kill
israeli chldren do not violate international human rights law.
not one person on this list or any of the moderators have siad that
this is wrong.
in other words israeli children do not have human rights and are
therefore not human.
as far as i am personaly concerned it is a racist statement . and
everybody and i do mean everybody agrees with it.
as to why do they do i do not know.
as to the wider issues that ron harold has in his own unique way
pointed out that i did not in any way make mention off.
i am well aware of the dire situation in the middle east. i have been
following the conflict in great detail since 2000. so do not preach
to me. your understanding of the 4th geneva convention is nill.
it clearly states that those who are not taking in any part in the
violence is not to be targetted. those who do so are in violation of
the 4th geneva convention.
i am agains the killing of children. all the children.
i want the violence to stop. all the violence.
i want peace for each and every country in the middle east.
12/30 It is wrong that Children or humans die in any conflict. Although it is
working, it is inevitable that the children of the colonialist aggressors
may be targeted in retaliation for the occupation of a whole country and the
killing of many of its people--including children in numbers that are much
higher than the casualties on the Israelis side.
Let us keep things in perspective. Not doing so is not intellectually
honest.
Sami
working, it is inevitable that the children of the colonialist aggressors
may be targeted in retaliation for the occupation of a whole country and the
killing of many of its people--including children in numbers that are much
higher than the casualties on the Israelis side.
Let us keep things in perspective. Not doing so is not intellectually
honest.
Sami
12/30 I asked you a legitimate question and all you can do instead is try to play on our emotions.......typical..... ..pro-Zionist propaganda........you shouldn't even open your mouth about the law, considering your terrorist nation Israel is the criminal nation deluxe model. Your Israeli government is responsible for the deaths of those Israeli children - why? how? Because your Israeli government decided long ago, Israel's continued illegal occupation and oppression of Palestine and Palestinians is more important than the safety of their own children. In other words, Israel has done nothing to truly reduce the motivation of the suicide bomber. Your Israeli government owes a duty to their own children to protect them - and that means not breaking the law in severely and grossly violating the rights of your next-door neighbor. Since your government broke into the house of Palestine, why would you be surprised or cry foul when Palestinians fight back the burglars Israel? Because Israeli children are killed? If you bring your kids with you to a gunfight YOU STARTED, and your kids get killed........who's fault is that? Yours, that's who. You don't see it in that perspective - you speak from the point of view Israel has no culpability in the deaths of their own children. Israeli children didn't invade Palestine, but their Israeli government is responsible for their little deaths. sincerely, r o n
12/30 - Everytime I hear an American broadcaster or citizen say this, it ticks
me off:
"If the Palestinians would just stop the suicide bombings and attacks,
then maybe a responsible Palestinian leader can get back to the
negotiating table and negotiate."
That kind of western/zionist rhetoric makes me long for Arafat's
proclamations.
.......negotiate? Negotiate what? Why should the homeowner negotiate
with the burglar who has broke into his home and terrorized the
homeowner?
There's nothing for Palestinians to negotiate.
There's only the need for Israel to comply with the law.
There's your Peace Plan - follow the law, Israel!
.r o n
me off:
"If the Palestinians would just stop the suicide bombings and attacks,
then maybe a responsible Palestinian leader can get back to the
negotiating table and negotiate."
That kind of western/zionist rhetoric makes me long for Arafat's
proclamations.
.......negotiate? Negotiate what? Why should the homeowner negotiate
with the burglar who has broke into his home and terrorized the
homeowner?
There's nothing for Palestinians to negotiate.
There's only the need for Israel to comply with the law.
There's your Peace Plan - follow the law, Israel!
.r o n
12/31 -Your statement accusing Ron of "racist" remarks is totally misplaced here, and would apply to any other members of this forum who agree with him. Notwithstanding the law and how anyone wishes to interpret it, the actions of the Palestinians are against their brutal "occupiers," and not because anyone is singling out "Israelis" in particular, which means that the occupiers could be anyone. That is exactly what Ron is saying. I can only assume if you think this is racist, then you would have no choice but to concede that Israel's occupation which singles out the Palestinian identity for the worst form of collective humiliation, abuse and violence irrespective of whether there is any wrongdoing, which is applied through a dual set of laws, one for Israeli citizens and one for Palestinians residing in the same territory is indeed racist! Y ou would have to also concede that Israel's treatment and laws, or proposed laws that have actually come before the Knesset against its its own Palestinian Arab citizens, are also racist. Let's keep the "racism" card where it appropriately belongs. . Marlene
12/31 - Left out a very important word here. The actions of the Palestinians are not only against their "occupiers," but also against their " colonizer s", which makes it unlike other occupations, such as the German occupation of France or the British occupation of Palestine, whereas German and/or British subjects were not being brought into those countries to establish communities at the expense of the indigenous population by stealing their lands and destroying their homes based entirely on their ethnic or national identity. Marlene.
12/31 - Against my better judgment, I will add something here (After all the debacle with Tanya and the brouhaha that ensued whereby we were AGAIN distracted and divided I had decided to stop commenting on much of what is said on this list) …
Last year, I was one of the participants in a dialogue group that included American Jews/Zionists, Israeli Jews/Zionists, Palestinians, and Americans. We had former Israeli soldiers (turned peaceniks) as well as some very hard line Zionists among the Jews present.
When I brought up the issue of the Occupation and settlements, asking them about “the importance” of these settlements, the hard line American Zionist and his Israeli counterpart responded that they were “VITAL TO THE SECURITY OF THE STATE OF ISRAEL”! When I then inquired them to explain this to me, they responded that the settlements were MUCH more than just a place for Jews to live; they were in fact “THE FIRST LINE OF DEFENSE FOR THE STATE OF ISRAEL AGAINST THE ARABS”!
This exchange was brought about after the Zionist wanted us the Palestinians to “condemn, here and now the terrorist operation in the Hebron area settlement whereby a Palestinian fighter infiltrated a settlement and killed a Jewish family, including 2 children”…
After hearing their response to my question about settlements, I then asked them if indeed the settlements were “Israel's front line defenses against the Arab ”, then they would have to be categorized as military targets and NOT civilian. After all, the each settlement comes with its own armory and paramilitary and military guards and militia!
The waffled for a bit, but when I pressed the issue for them to either categorize the settlements as either ‘military bases” or ‘civilian population centers” (they have a problem with this because it goes against the Geneva Convention rules about moving your own civilian population into occupied territories), they relented and said that the settlements would be best described as “military”…
After hearing this, I pounced on them, accusing the Jewish settlers of “child cruelty” in the worst degree for moving their children to a war zone and then have them live in a “military area” thus exposing them to the inherent dangers of a war Zone…
Just my 2 “iqroosh” (the old Palestinian currency) worth… (As opposed to someone else's Shekels)
Mike
12/31 - I could add also that the military does not control the settlers nor their well-documented violence, but the settlers control the military. Just my masari's (money) worth. Marlene
Jan 2, 2005 - to introduce my self
i am michael . i live in australia. i have absolutely no ties with
israel or any jewish groups.
as stated i am against the violence.
i am against the deaths of ALL the children
i am against the wall.
i am for human rights being upheld for everyone.
i am currently going through the documents at the un web site.
very interesting reading . i highly recommend it.
i have been thrown off a pro-israeli site for arguing aginst the
murder of palestinian children.
i have been thrown of a pro-palestinian site for arguing against the
murder of israeli children.
but enough about me.
ron harold has done what other speakers have done. without knowing
one thing about and is against my statement that israeli children are
protected by human rights law he procedes to label me a pro-zionist.
also a jew who supports the israeli state/government by using such
phrases as "your terrorist nation" and "your isreali governement"
and calls the statement that israeli children are protected by human
rights lws/legislation as "pro-zionist propganda"
now the rest of the group are using the tired ideologoy that the
suicide bombers, who they hate and are against, are justified to
attack israeli children.
there is not one thing that justifies any attack against any child.
no doubt ron harold will call this "pro-zionist propaganda" as well.
according to marlene
israeli children are occupiers. more information.
i occupation is racist. i am against and have emailed sharon to stop
occupation and pull out of west bank and gaza strip.
she also states that there are laws passed to be enacted against the
arab population and she calls them racist. i am against racism
regardless. these racist laws should be replaced by non-racist laws.
the human rights committee of the un have been investigating israel
and these laws among other things. go and read the documents on the
un Suicide and Morality, People's Opinions: An ongoing dialogue on suicide bombings and morality. I do not edit the letters. The words in bold are the beginning of a different persons dialogue. This dialogue became huge, I add new diagloues as they come in at the bottom so new readers can follow the events. I add to this daily since December 15th, 2004. This would make a good study!
i am michael . i live in australia. i have absolutely no ties with
israel or any jewish groups.
as stated i am against the violence.
i am against the deaths of ALL the children
i am against the wall.
i am for human rights being upheld for everyone.
i am currently going through the documents at the un web site.
very interesting reading . i highly recommend it.
i have been thrown off a pro-israeli site for arguing aginst the
murder of palestinian children.
i have been thrown of a pro-palestinian site for arguing against the
murder of israeli children.
but enough about me.
ron harold has done what other speakers have done. without knowing
one thing about and is against my statement that israeli children are
protected by human rights law he procedes to label me a pro-zionist.
also a jew who supports the israeli state/government by using such
phrases as "your terrorist nation" and "your isreali governement"
and calls the statement that israeli children are protected by human
rights lws/legislation as "pro-zionist propganda"
now the rest of the group are using the tired ideologoy that the
suicide bombers, who they hate and are against, are justified to
attack israeli children.
there is not one thing that justifies any attack against any child.
no doubt ron harold will call this "pro-zionist propaganda" as well.
according to marlene
israeli children are occupiers. more information.
i occupation is racist. i am against and have emailed sharon to stop
occupation and pull out of west bank and gaza strip.
she also states that there are laws passed to be enacted against the
arab population and she calls them racist. i am against racism
regardless. these racist laws should be replaced by non-racist laws.
the human rights committee of the un have been investigating israel
and these laws among other things. go and read the documents on the
un Suicide and Morality, People's Opinions: An ongoing dialogue on suicide bombings and morality. I do not edit the letters. The words in bold are the beginning of a different persons dialogue. This dialogue became huge, I add new diagloues as they come in at the bottom so new readers can follow the events. I add to this daily since December 15th, 2004. This would make a good study!
let it direct your passion with reason, that your passion may live through its own daily resurrection, and like the phoenix rise above its own ashes. ~Khalil Gibran
If Palestinians were Killed by Suicide Bombers?
I am posting an old article as I read the posts on suicide bombings and morality. I condemn the use of suicide bombimgs but not for reasons of "morality." I just don't want more of our kids to die because they are the future of our society. Is it wrong that innocent Israelis die? You bet! But I would be lying if I said I get as emotional as when I hear of Palestinian innocents dying. I suspect that if people want suicide bombings to end, we're going to have to seek it in a way that elevates Palestinian life and wanting to see our youth live. Talking about the immorality of the loss of Israeli life while they bulldoze homes, kill our youth, and are generally content with occupying our people until violence visited them on their own doorsteps is not going to fly with too many people. Quite simply, we have to love our own people more than we hate them or their stupid and barbaric policies.
by Sherri Muzher | Paeline Chronicle | 19/3/2004 "Is that the problem? Palestinians are not being killed by suicide bombings and therefore their deaths are not going to warrant reactions of horror? .."
By SHERRI MUZHER
I just finished reading a report about the Israeli killing of 32 Palestinians the week of March 7, 2004 .
Ten of them were children and two were women. There was no breaking news or the usual presidential condemnation that often accommodates suicide bombings.
Is that the problem? Palestinians are not being killed by suicide bombings and therefore their deaths are not going to warrant reactions of horror?
It's a question that crosses my mind often when I hear about the repulsion against those who strap bombs. I don't support suicide bombings but I certainly don't distinguish between the deaths of innocents and more importantly, how the killings take place.
I am often asked if I condemn suicide bombings when a discussion hits on the Middle East conflict. Do Israeli-Americans get asked if they condemn occupation, I wonder? Anyhow, I usually ask “If Israelis were killed by military-style ambushes and Palestinians didn't strap bombs on themselves, would you find the deaths more tolerable?”
Silence usually follows.
Call me a human rights activist but results rather than methods anger me. What difference does it make how people are killed? Innocents are being killed on both the Palestinian and Israeli sides.
Specific to the Palestinians, nearly 3,000 have been killed since the uprising for freedom began in September, 2000 – a third of them, children. In the overwhelming majority of cases, Palestinians are killed in non-combative situations, just like Israeli civilians on buses are.
But dead Palestinian innocents are not afforded the dramatic media coverage that Israelis get. No breathless interviews; pictures of carnage; interviews with witnesses and government officials; and/or the traditional condemnation by President George Bush.
Perhaps most disheartening about the media coverage is the implication that the Palestinian-Israeli conflict is calm unless there is a suicide bombing. Try telling that to the Palestinian family of three-year-old Dina Iesa who went into shock and later died after hearing Israel shelling in her neighborhood.
But she didn't die in a suicide bombing. In fact, the 3,000 Palestinians didn't die by suicide bombings. None of them could go outside for a breath of fresh air without permission from the Israeli Defense Force, but hey, they didn't die by soldiers strapping bombs. That's all that matters, right?
What a fickle world we live in when people ignore the root causes of hatred and killing but just want to focus on whether a killer strapped a bomb on him/herself. I guess Palestinians killed by F16 bombings died with smiles on their faces.
Killing is killing !!! and killing innocents is simply"killing innocents". The difference lies in the identity of the killer: is he an occupier ?? or an occupied ?? Making no difference is erroneous , if not naively-simplistic. Merry Christmas Horst Gottwald Muenchen BRD
I don't disagree with the point above. I think the Israeli left (in Israel) has collapsed and is replaced by a phoniness ... Israelis who talk of peace but never admit any fault of their own. It's always the Palestinians who are bad and doing bad things, and they NEVER acknowledge the viciousness of their own violence and state terrorism by the Sharon Government. Still, as a longtime believer in the power of non-violence, I believe that strengthening the moral character of a people gives the oppressed more fortitude and stamina to survive even the most brutal of oppressions. And Israel 's occupation has never been more vicious, brutal and immoral. Imagine the arrogance of a people who believe that they can build a wall around a people to prevent justice or being forced to acknowledge their guilt in causing the conflict and current violence. My issue is not so much to make the Israelis feel good, but to strengthen the moral high ground of the Palestinians and build world support among the nations where it matters most ... Let's face it, we often settle for crumbs in our leadership, our spokespeople, and in our successes. Europe , for example, is worthless, despite their valiant support of our cause. Palestinians need to win back the support of the American public. That's a whole, another issue for later discussion :) But I respect your opinion. Just disagree ..
it is interesting to note that Israelis rarely spoke out against leaving the Occupied Territories and never cared about the suffering of Palestinians until violence visited them on their doorsteps. Who is rewarding violence? Israelis generally make it extremely difficult for those of us who support Satyagraha to do so.
I and the public know
what all schoolchildren learn
those to whom evil is done
do evil in return.
W. H. Auden
US (English-born) critic & poet (1907 - 1973)
My point is that if one is to convince the average Palestinian Joe not to believe in suicide bombings or armed struggle, it needs to be done in a way that talks about loving our own people more and not wanting to lose more of our youth. Preaching morality to the demoralized is not going to fly. We need to do a better job as a people speaking in terms that the layperson understands. BTW, it is interesting to note that Israelis rarely spoke out against leaving the Occupied Territories and never cared about the suffering of Palestinians until violence visited them on their doorsteps. Who is rewarding violence? Israelis generally make it extremely difficult for those of us who support Satyagraha to do so. Ray, I agree with you on a lot of things but while we agree that suicide bombings are wrong, we completely disagree on how to sell the message in a way that will resonate with Palestinians on the street. I just find it difficult to believe that preaching morality to those who cannot even go out for a breath of fresh air without permission from the IDF are going to find your PR strategy convincing. Maybe I'm wrong, but I hear far too much justifiable rage from Palestinians to see it that way. Now, if you talk about saving the youth of our future and loving our people, people are less likely to roll their eyes. Food for thought . . .
If I were tying to make a point on suicide bombings that might be effective, I would use the argument that I would not be giving my enemy what he wants, and the Israeli leadership does thrive on this, with just another excuse to inflict more damage and destruction on the Palestinian population even though this defies all rules of law amd ethics. I don't doubt for one minute that this is what they want and what they try to incite. In that case, as Ray pointed out previously, a strategy of disrupting Israeli society would be much more effective anyway. Sharon is not grieving for Israeli victims. This is a fascade. He is delighted! Another Palestinian who blows himself up is just one less Palestinian who will have a family and bring more Palestinians into the world where your thoughts come in about saving Palestinian youth, which is the future of Palestine , instead of destroying it. Live for Palestine ! Marlene
Absolutely! The breaking down of society is precisely what the Israeli government wants. Civil disruption is the way to go, or if people are determined to still hit militarily, target the army where it hurts. That is completely within the realm of the law, and it hurts Israel 's psyche far more. On a personal level, it saves our own youth. These days, that should be our concern. There is an Israeli rabbi who once said that the lives of one thousand Arabs is not worth the fingernail of a Jew. I won't go so far as to be that hateful and despicable, but I would caution Palestinians to remember how much Israelis treasure their own lives. Why are our youth being wasted? And consider that the PA is going to negotiate a final deal anyway. The loss of Palestinian life is unforgivable.
A vision of hope and a better tomorrow is what must be conveyed to our precious youth. We must convince them that their lives carry a great amount of importance to us and the rest of the Palestinian people and should not be wasted in such a manner!
I am still baffled as to why Israeli roads and infrastructure, particularly the ones in the occupied territories are not targeted!
While I support a world in which "Jewish people" are living in
prosperity and safety with and within every other nation and people,
Israel and the "Jewish people" cannot be allowed to ride rough shod
over others.
If the "Jewish people" wish to live in peace with the non Jews of
the world, let them show it in their actions. This would include
their involvements in infiltrating governments such as America
government and formenting wars against non Jewish nations in the
Middle East and worldwide. Let the "Jewish people" be known for
their ability to find ways for everyone to live in peace and end
wars rather than being known for their sly formentations of wars and
strife worldwide.
May it begin in Palestine . Otherwise, may the fighting increase
until there is complete victory over these anti Christ, gentile
hating, world dominating Judeao/Zionist/Bolshevik monsters.
Mik
I can see stopping suicide bombings, as they guarantee the death of
the one carrying out the attack. To me it has never been the
warriors way. To die in battle against ones enemy with some hope of
survival and victory is one thing, but to fight in ways that always
guarantee the death of the warrior seems wrong from a survival of
the species and family standpoint. It is one thing to sacrifice
oneself in the heat of battle, and yet another to guarantee one's
own destruction.
However to give up all resistance while ones enemy continues to
descimate the Palestinian people, showing no respect for them, their
property, or their families, while the enemy ( Israel ) continues it's
aggressions and killings may be self defeating as well.
Yet, we are still waiting for Israel to show that is their
intention. The intentions that Israel shows, judging from the
political speeches in the Knesset, it to continue on their slow
ethnic cleansing and genocide of the Palestinian people. On at least
a weekly schedule they call out for even more wars against Syria and
Iran , and we know their manipulations within the American government
to attack all other Arab countries as well. So why should armed
resistance stop?
Setting aside suicide bombings and armed struggle sounds like a good
idea provided Israel was dedicated to ending it's aggressions,
murder, assasinations, land theft and daily torture and torment of
the Palestinian and non Jewish people throughout the Middle East and
the World.
If Israel wished to create a situation in which everyone was working
for the common good of all, let it so be!! It would seem to be the
best for everyone....
On suicide bombings ... they are illegal and immoral and wrong. Period. You don't kill innocent people or hold an entire nation guilty for the actions of its leaders ... Palestinians make that very good argument all the time, yet some say nothingt when Palesitnians kill innocent Israelis in this most vicious and brutal manner. There is NO COMPROMISE on suicide bombings ... it is an ugly, uIslamic, unChristian act of horrendous immoral violence. People on both sides are committing illegal acts. How can we, as Palestinians, denounce Israel for violating Palestinian rights through such things as collective punishment, when we permit ourselves to rationalize the collective guilt of all Jews in Israel . They are not all guilty of crimes against Palesitnians and many non-Jews are killed, too. There is one morality. One principle. One rule of law. One standard. One justice. WHen you apply it to both sides fairly, then you can argue that justice is on your side. Don't let passion turn into emotion and then violence. It hasn't done one thing to help Palestine and that is a fact. Ray Hanania
A suicide bomber commits first a suicide and then secondly he kills his ennemy,invader,opressor. If an Israeli would commit a suicide bombing he or she will be killing his own victims. Therefore Dr. S. Muzher is utterly wrong in making any comparaison , as she did ,initialy. What she wrote was 180 degree away from correct. Horst
Dear Ray , I see now why the Americans gave you a reward. Was it the same crime when the British bommbed Germany as when Germany bombed England ???? Was it the same crime when an Algerian shot a French Soldier in Algeria , when the French were the occupiers ??? Why should we be more "Catholish than the Pope" ?? why should we turn the left cheak and the right cheak and again the left cheak,etc ?? Why the hypocrisy when you have the moral-high-ground ?? are we fishing for an Oscar or for a Nobel Prize ?? Horst Gottwald BRD
Why would one speak on a subject as important as this, without
knowledge or acknowledgement of the law in these matters?
There is absolutely NO DOUBT Israel has always been on the wrong side
of the law for decades now; whereas Palestinians are not on the wrong
side of the law, and have not violated the law - not even what you
refer to as "suicide bombers" are illegal. Because Israel is illegally
occupying Palestine , such a legal and physical fact, by international
law, gives Palestinians the legal right to use what the Geneva
Conventions term as, "....any means necessary" to evict the illegal
occupiers from Palestine .
The entire world knows Israel and the US government are partners in
crime against Palestine and Muslims worldwide.
Too bad the American people have been brainwashed by the
Corporate-Zionist media in America , for their entire lives. most
Americans don't even KNOW Israel and the U.S. is and has been on the
wrong side of the law since day one.
.r o n
Raja, is that your new "name?" Horst? Raja, I stand by what I said. If you are into Palestinians blowing themselves up, why don't you offer youself up for sacrifice first. Goodness, how easy it is to push for others to be killed from the comfort of one's home.
A suicide bomber commits first a suicide and then secondly he kills his ennemy,invader,opressor. If an Israeli would commit a suicide bombing he or she will be killing his own victims. Therefore Dr. S. Muzher is utterly wrong in making any comparaison , as she did ,initialy. What she wrote was 180 degree away from correct. Horst
it is interesting to note that Israelis rarely spoke out against leaving the Occupied Territories and never cared about the suffering of Palestinians until violence visited them on their doorsteps. Who is rewarding violence? Israelis generally make it extremely difficult for those of us who support Satyagraha to do so. >>>
Good point Palestinians were very passive under the Israeli occupation for 20 years, from 1967 until the first intifada in 1987 so there was nothing for the Israelis to complain about. Until that time, in the United States, I would say no one was paying any attention to the Palestinians, and they were like a people who never existed, which is the way Israel would have liked it to remain.
The first intifada was mostly all civilians who had no weapons other than stones and molotov cocktails, yet they were brutalized just for that. The first suicide bombing didn't happen until 1994 which was 7 years after the first uprising, and then 27 years into the Israeli occupation, just after Baruch Goldstein killed 29 Muslim worshippers in Hebron, for which the Israeli government did nothing when they should have removed the crazed fanatics. The lives of the Palestinians still remained unchanged. So it seems very likely that without armed struggle, the Palestinians will be swept under the rug again unless there is some kind of very strong, unified worldwide effort made on their behalf.
Marlene
Ron, then tell me how I defend this:
The Israelis say that the Palestinians "breed" suicide bombers, encourage
their children to become martyrs.
We deny that, right?
Then why do I have a Palestinian friend, very very financially successful
and perhaps someone people here on this list have met and seen in the media,
who would actually send his son to die as a suicide bomber if he could?
Why do I know of one Palestinian mother who has, despite me cringing when I
hear this, who indeed has given birth to twelve children, a couple who have
so far become suicide bombers and her reason for "replacing" them with more?
This exists, and it's despicable. But there *are* people, well educated and
very well off, who would do this?
It is only partly, according to them, to do with Israel .
So how do you defend that?
Tanya
The Israelis say that the Palestinians "breed" suicide bombers, encourage
their children to become martyrs.
We deny that, right?
Then why do I have a Palestinian friend, very very financially successful
and perhaps someone people here on this list have met and seen in the media,
who would actually send his son to die as a suicide bomber if he could?
Why do I know of one Palestinian mother who has, despite me cringing when I
hear this, who indeed has given birth to twelve children, a couple who have
so far become suicide bombers and her reason for "replacing" them with more?
This exists, and it's despicable. But there *are* people, well educated and
very well off, who would do this?
It is only partly, according to them, to do with Israel .
So how do you defend that?
Tanya
I don't speak for the Palestinian Authority, nor the PLO, nor Sherri or any
other member here.
But you, Ron, are out of line *in my opinion*.
You call Sherri a phoney? You cannot be serious.
Do you seriously think that Palestinians....all of them...MUST think the way
you do because you are enlightened and they are not?
What makes you think Sherri is inactive?
Fighting is your answer, isn't it? That's all?
Sad, so sad.
Tanya
other member here.
But you, Ron, are out of line *in my opinion*.
You call Sherri a phoney? You cannot be serious.
Do you seriously think that Palestinians....all of them...MUST think the way
you do because you are enlightened and they are not?
What makes you think Sherri is inactive?
Fighting is your answer, isn't it? That's all?
Sad, so sad.
Tanya
Ron, if you "respectfully" disagree, then "respectfully" disagree.
I recall just about six weeks ago you left a post asking to be enlightened and that you had a lot to learn (something to that effect). Now, six weeks later, you seem to know everything and others know nothing and you're the only one who understands the hopelessness and despair of the Palestinians, which is a good thing, but please don't accuse anyone of not understanding when they have long been involved in the Palestinian struggle, which is sometimes just being armed with a keyboard.
We're all well aware that the law is with the Palestinians which certainly legitimizes their struggle and makes it just without any doubt, so if laws were adhered to, it sure would solve a lof of problems, but that is not the way it has thus far worked.
I hope you at least looked up Sherri's name in Google to read some of the wonderful articles she's written which you may also learn further from.
Marlene
You forgot to mention that I work for Mossad and was solely responsible for the drafting of the Oslo Accords -- I managed to do this at the tender age of 23. <<
You too?! Sherri...welcome to the club! ;-)
>>You have got to be kidding me, Ron. I question the agenda of those who spend their energies trying to bring down other activists -- I truly do. You are not the first one I have come across to try and do this, and sadly won't be the last. You are free to look up my witings on the internet. Then, come back to me with your rubbish.<<
Amen. Sadly and with regrets Sherri...amen.
It's not worth it. Our efforts need to be confined to changing things, not arguing the same old story to those who are quite fresh to this. (The “radical” thought process playing out...)
You too?! Sherri...welcome to the club! ;-)
>>You have got to be kidding me, Ron. I question the agenda of those who spend their energies trying to bring down other activists -- I truly do. You are not the first one I have come across to try and do this, and sadly won't be the last. You are free to look up my witings on the internet. Then, come back to me with your rubbish.<<
Amen. Sadly and with regrets Sherri...amen.
It's not worth it. Our efforts need to be confined to changing things, not arguing the same old story to those who are quite fresh to this. (The “radical” thought process playing out...)
I read Sherri's post and see her love of Palestine and Palestinians in very word. Some of the postings on this list also relay a love of Palestine and Palestinians, however, they're mixed with bullying, one-sidedness, personal attacks and condescending mannerisms.
For example, Ray Hanania is always being misread. Ray, a Palestinian, has done more for Palestine by being a professional journalist and writing about the Palestinian cause. Precisely because he is Palestinian, he is taken seriously. How many Palestinians write columns regularly in a major metropolitan area? Even if we don't agree with his views, his message of injustice is there. It gives information to the most misinformed and uniformed population. It's not easy putting Palestine in front of yourself in America. Ray does just that. To think that he's in it for money or fame or he's a spy is insane. Why are we blinded by that? A question that I think will continue to be asked as long as we continue to create negativity amongst ourselves.
you are dead right.
I'm wondering if it's worth it to continue here also, because there are valuable items posted many a time.
But this is what we see over and over and over: fighting and in-fighting because this person here doesn't believe exactly what this person here believes.
This is exactly what we all know happens, and it leads to nothing .
I posted some other messages yesterday along these lines but haven't seen them posted. Have they come through?
Tanya
Oh my..........what it boils down to is, you believe Palestinian "suicide bombers" lives were spent in vain, when they could have lived there life out in peace instead.....I respectfully disagree.... that's why I think you're a phony, to a certain extent......because you apparently don't truly understand and comprehend the hopelessness and despair, comingled with the "suicide bomber's" attempt to make their life mean something more than just one of unilateral suffering. These people don't have an air force, navy and marines, nuclear bombs and helicopters.......but they do have the self-determination to fight their oppressors the best way they can..........many Westerners cannot comprehend this, because of most Westerners' lack of empathy in these matters. To sit quitely inactive, while your oppressors destroy you and your homeland seems unreasonable to me. r o n
trying to explain what? if Palestinians would just stop the "suicide bombing" then things could get better? That seems to be Sherri's point. If Palestinians would just stop the suicide bombings, then Israelis would stop killing Palestinians? If Palestinians would just stop the suicide bombings, then the world community will come to Palestinians' rescue? My point is what I said before: I'm not sending "suicide bombers" to die. I prefer no Palestinians or Israelis to die. I do understand Palestinian "suicide bombers" are a by-product of Israeli oppression and occupation - not a by-product of themselves. "Suicide bombers" are not a solution, but a symptom of decades of hopelessness and Israeli occupation/oppression. The disease is Israeli & U.S. lawlessness - the hypocrisy of our democracy - and The Cure is the international community, especially the United States, forcing Israel to comply with the 65+ U.N. Resolutions Israel is in violation of. There's your "Peace Plan" : FOLLOW THE LAW! .r o n
(12/23) Whenever I am asked about my support for suicide bombings, I always respond that
the question is an attempt to change the subject from Israeli crimes against humanity.
That is precisely what it is.
AFter the listener has had a chance to digest that, I go on to say that NO ONE outside of Palestine has a right to pass judgment on the tactics of resistance. NO ONE.
Since I have ususally been talking to French people, who are on the whole much more reasonable that US audiences, people usually do not find this response unreasonable.
But I continue to use it in the United States. The Zionists groan and howl, but after a time that dies away. I can tell most of the people listening understand.
the question is an attempt to change the subject from Israeli crimes against humanity.
That is precisely what it is.
AFter the listener has had a chance to digest that, I go on to say that NO ONE outside of Palestine has a right to pass judgment on the tactics of resistance. NO ONE.
Since I have ususally been talking to French people, who are on the whole much more reasonable that US audiences, people usually do not find this response unreasonable.
But I continue to use it in the United States. The Zionists groan and howl, but after a time that dies away. I can tell most of the people listening understand.
(12/23) We all understand.
It isn't working.
Now what?
Tanya
It isn't working.
Now what?
Tanya
Oh, no lecturing here from me.
I merely state that the international world has a problem with that. It is their opinion, and this is the biggest hindrance outside of Israel itself.
(12/23) The leadership will change, but what we have now is still pretty corrupt. The stories I have on how to operate within the PA or PLO are shameful. We know that Marwan Barghouti was a “good” man, and yet he's the one in jail. He's the one with the tiny apartment in a dangerous area. The others? Mansions and chauffeurs.
Appalling, when the people suffer so much. Do they deserve our undying and unswerving support? Is it time to call them to the table and demand proper change, not some petty paper chase?
How I wish Marwan stayed in; he promised he would not back out, and yet he did. How I wish Rantisi was still alive. There was so much hope in him.
What we have is what we have.
But under no circumstances to I lecture Palestinians there on morality. I merely point out what we all know: the view “outside” isn't changing, no matter how many deaths and suicides.
There has to be a better way.
I merely state that the international world has a problem with that. It is their opinion, and this is the biggest hindrance outside of Israel itself.
(12/23) The leadership will change, but what we have now is still pretty corrupt. The stories I have on how to operate within the PA or PLO are shameful. We know that Marwan Barghouti was a “good” man, and yet he's the one in jail. He's the one with the tiny apartment in a dangerous area. The others? Mansions and chauffeurs.
Appalling, when the people suffer so much. Do they deserve our undying and unswerving support? Is it time to call them to the table and demand proper change, not some petty paper chase?
How I wish Marwan stayed in; he promised he would not back out, and yet he did. How I wish Rantisi was still alive. There was so much hope in him.
What we have is what we have.
But under no circumstances to I lecture Palestinians there on morality. I merely point out what we all know: the view “outside” isn't changing, no matter how many deaths and suicides.
There has to be a better way.
(12/27) "I know why you aren't calling for Israel to comply with the law. I know
why you are obfuscating the issue of the imperative need for Israel and
the U.S. government to comply with the law, in order to create
conditions for peace. I don't hear you pontificating on the need for
the guilty parties to start following the law. You act and speak as if
Palestinians are wrongdoers who need to correct their evil,
unproductive ways." You forgot to mention that I work for Mossad and was solely responsible for the drafting of the Oslo Accords -- I managed to do this at the tender age of 23.You have got to be kidding me, Ron. I question the agenda of those who spend their energies trying to bring down other activists -- I truly do. You are not the first one I have come across to try and do this, and sadly won't be the last. You are free to look up my witings on the internet. Then, come back to me with your rubbish.
why you are obfuscating the issue of the imperative need for Israel and
the U.S. government to comply with the law, in order to create
conditions for peace. I don't hear you pontificating on the need for
the guilty parties to start following the law. You act and speak as if
Palestinians are wrongdoers who need to correct their evil,
unproductive ways." You forgot to mention that I work for Mossad and was solely responsible for the drafting of the Oslo Accords -- I managed to do this at the tender age of 23.
You have got to be kidding me, Ron. I question the agenda of those who spend their energies trying to bring down other activists -- I truly do. You are not the first one I have come across to try and do this, and sadly won't be the last. You are free to look up my witings on the internet. Then, come back to me with your rubbish.(12/27) Just reading this whole exchange is so sad. It has prompted me to leave many lists and stop being involved in some major Palestinian organizations. I do a lot of organizing around peace and support for non-violence. When I reach out to the Palestinians and different groups this is what I see. I find myself depressed and sad--we are truly a mess.
This is not a personal attack, just an observation. Sometimes I really wonder about the people who so vehemently argue for Palestinian rights--not exclusive to this list. Will peace leave them twiddling their thumbs... is it the thrill of the fight? When it gets ugly, those things cross my mind--whether they are Arab/Palestinian or not. What are we looking to the future for? Chicago's Palestinian community mirrors this exchange. So much more can be done TOGETHER without the conspiracy theories, personal attacks. Can we agree to disagree and work together on common themes, or are we destined to languish in anger and dispair... Saffiya
(12/27) Ron, That seems to be my point? Go back and read my posts to see the point of what I said. I will ask you a rhetorical question -- rhetorical because I don't care to hear or read your patronizing conspiracies. Many of us know Palestinians who resisted the Israeli Occupation in the first Intifada. They didn't blow themselves up. Are they not worthy of our respect? Resistance comes in many forms. Even succeeding in the arts is a form of resistance, such as Ammar Hassan. Look at the Palestinian soccer team who are fighting against all odds to make it to the World Cup in 2006. Are they not heroes for daring to dream? And why do I say that the PA will negotiate the final deal? Because it will. Watch the news. It's not my choice. It's the reality. The kicker for me is that most of those who keep talking about fighting and death are people that live here in the States. They eat, drink, and sleep in safety but damn the Palestinians overseas if they say they are tired and just want some normalcy in their lives. One of the most disappointing aspects in this struggle for Palestinian justice is the infighting and unbelivable lack of tolerance toward people who want to try new approaches. I don't think there is a point in continuing this discussion given the personal attacks. Some people thrive on it but if we are to make a difference, we have to stick together. Those who don't get this simple point are part of the reason that 57 years of struggling have brought us us no further than 1947. That is nothing to be proud of.
trying to explain what? if Palestinians would just stop the "suicide
bombing" then things could get better? That seems to be Sherri's point.
If Palestinians would just stop the suicide bombings, then Israelis
would stop killing Palestinians?
If Palestinians would just stop the suicide bombings, then the world
community will come to Palestinians' rescue?
(12/27) My point is what I said before:
I'm not sending "suicide bombers" to die. I prefer no Palestinians or
Israelis to die.
I do understand Palestinian "suicide bombers" are a by-product of
Israeli oppression and occupation - not a by-product of themselves.
"Suicide bombers" are not a solution, but a symptom of decades of
hopelessness and Israeli occupation/oppression.
The disease is Israeli & U.S. lawlessness - the hypocrisy of our
democracy - and The Cure is the international community, especially the
United States, forcing Israel to comply with the 65+ U.N. Resolutions
Israel is in violation of. There's your "Peace Plan" : FOLLOW THE LAW!
bombing" then things could get better? That seems to be Sherri's point.
If Palestinians would just stop the suicide bombings, then Israelis
would stop killing Palestinians?
If Palestinians would just stop the suicide bombings, then the world
community will come to Palestinians' rescue?
(12/27) My point is what I said before:
I'm not sending "suicide bombers" to die. I prefer no Palestinians or
Israelis to die.
I do understand Palestinian "suicide bombers" are a by-product of
Israeli oppression and occupation - not a by-product of themselves.
"Suicide bombers" are not a solution, but a symptom of decades of
hopelessness and Israeli occupation/oppression.
The disease is Israeli & U.S. lawlessness - the hypocrisy of our
democracy - and The Cure is the international community, especially the
United States, forcing Israel to comply with the 65+ U.N. Resolutions
Israel is in violation of. There's your "Peace Plan" : FOLLOW THE LAW!
(12/28) It seems we've created a micro-cosmic mini Palestine here that seems
to mirror what's going on in Palestine many times. Some think
ending violence is the best way, others think continuing
in military and physical struggle is the right path to take.
Both factions prefer peace, yet it escapes from everyone, each
blaming the approach of the other for the failing to obtain their
objectives.
There's some action along both lines, both peaceful and violent, yet
nothing is accomplished that frees the Palestinians from their daily
strife and struggle. Such is the nature of this beast.
One thing for sure, this 'dividedness' is part of the problem
in achieving victory for the Palestinians. The lack of a clear
and well defined plan that everyone agrees on makes moving forward
more difficult. Following International Law would soon lead to peace,
yet that is far too simple/difficult for Israel to do, as they covet
the land of the Palestians and for all these years have been
stealing it bit by bit.
I'd like to see the Palestinians win or at least obtain a decent
settlement (no pun intended)in this situation, if there are to be
no "winners" in this. To Continue as it's been for the past years
only wears more heavily on everyone. I would hope that a clear
direction and plan that will be followed by everyone can be made and
followed. Otherwise, resources and lives will continue to be wasted
by everyone involved in this.
Hopefully, the new Palestinian leadership will be able to overcome
these obstacles and obtain a decent settlement if it is at all
possible. My best wishes to whoever shall be chosen to lead. May he
lead the Palestinian people to safety and security.
Mik
to mirror what's going on in Palestine many times. Some think
ending violence is the best way, others think continuing
in military and physical struggle is the right path to take.
Both factions prefer peace, yet it escapes from everyone, each
blaming the approach of the other for the failing to obtain their
objectives.
There's some action along both lines, both peaceful and violent, yet
nothing is accomplished that frees the Palestinians from their daily
strife and struggle. Such is the nature of this beast.
One thing for sure, this 'dividedness' is part of the problem
in achieving victory for the Palestinians. The lack of a clear
and well defined plan that everyone agrees on makes moving forward
more difficult. Following International Law would soon lead to peace,
yet that is far too simple/difficult for Israel to do, as they covet
the land of the Palestians and for all these years have been
stealing it bit by bit.
I'd like to see the Palestinians win or at least obtain a decent
settlement (no pun intended)in this situation, if there are to be
no "winners" in this. To Continue as it's been for the past years
only wears more heavily on everyone. I would hope that a clear
direction and plan that will be followed by everyone can be made and
followed. Otherwise, resources and lives will continue to be wasted
by everyone involved in this.
Hopefully, the new Palestinian leadership will be able to overcome
these obstacles and obtain a decent settlement if it is at all
possible. My best wishes to whoever shall be chosen to lead. May he
lead the Palestinian people to safety and security.
Mik
12/28 - These direct and oblique personal attacks are getting no one
anywhere. Is there some way we can shift this topic to one of
showing how 'non violence' or "direct fighting" might achieve
victory for the Palestinians?
Are there any other possibilities that might be considered?
Mik
anywhere. Is there some way we can shift this topic to one of
showing how 'non violence' or "direct fighting" might achieve
victory for the Palestinians?
Are there any other possibilities that might be considered?
Mik
12/28 - Good point Ron....how can we get our American government to obey
International Law? How can we get our American government to get
Israel to obey International Law?
Talking to the State Department, Congressmen and Senators has so far
gotten us nowhere, as they prefer to back Israel in it's agenda. I'm
not sure if AIPAC being turned inside out by the FBI will change
things one iota or not, but it may help.
We're faced with the problem of Israeli's coming over, to say
nothing of dual citizenshippers, and writing US Policy. Our
President lauds the AEI group, and they're among the worst offenders
in this area. JINSA might be another Think Tank that's so pro Israel
they can see nothing else.
How do we free our country from these folks?
Mik
International Law? How can we get our American government to get
Israel to obey International Law?
Talking to the State Department, Congressmen and Senators has so far
gotten us nowhere, as they prefer to back Israel in it's agenda. I'm
not sure if AIPAC being turned inside out by the FBI will change
things one iota or not, but it may help.
We're faced with the problem of Israeli's coming over, to say
nothing of dual citizenshippers, and writing US Policy. Our
President lauds the AEI group, and they're among the worst offenders
in this area. JINSA might be another Think Tank that's so pro Israel
they can see nothing else.
How do we free our country from these folks?
Mik
12/28 - Would you say that Israeli mom's are "raising their children to be
murderous IDF/IOF men, Tanya?
As one who's 'lived by the sword' in the military, it's not something
that mothers and fathers raise their children for, but in military
struggles, it's just something that happens...
One of these days humanity will wake up, wise up, and beat their
swords into plowshares and fast cars, but until then, no one will
accept being bludgeoned to death, and having their land stolen by an
insatiable enemy who wishes to kill not only the fighters, but ones
whole family without a fight to the death.
Whether the weapons chosen for the fight are weapons of violence
and pain, or non violent resistance is for those who are fighting to
decide. Still, if ones non Violence is yet met with more violence
and theft, how long will people continue in non violence? At some
point, enough is enough.
Mik
murderous IDF/IOF men, Tanya?
As one who's 'lived by the sword' in the military, it's not something
that mothers and fathers raise their children for, but in military
struggles, it's just something that happens...
One of these days humanity will wake up, wise up, and beat their
swords into plowshares and fast cars, but until then, no one will
accept being bludgeoned to death, and having their land stolen by an
insatiable enemy who wishes to kill not only the fighters, but ones
whole family without a fight to the death.
Whether the weapons chosen for the fight are weapons of violence
and pain, or non violent resistance is for those who are fighting to
decide. Still, if ones non Violence is yet met with more violence
and theft, how long will people continue in non violence? At some
point, enough is enough.
Mik
12/28 - Whenever a Palestinian child is born,
We win
Whenever that child goes to school,
We win
Whenever a Palestinian child excels,
We win
Whenever a Palestinian child graduates,
We win
Whenever a Palestinian graduates college
We win
Whenever a Palestinian becomes a professional (doctor, lawyer, engineer, and so on)
We win
Whenever he or she gets married,
We win
Whenever there is a Palestinian wedding,
We win
Whenever he or she has Palestinian children of their own,
We win!!!
Whenever I take my 3 children back home to Palestine and see their eyes light up upon seeing their “homeland”,
We win
Whenever my children answer “Beit Hanina, Palestine ”, when they are asked where they come from, although they were born right here in Michigan ,
We win!!!
Whenever Palestinian children, who are born and raised in America , decide to send their Eid money to Palestinian refugees instead of spending it toys and video games,
We Win!
The point is, WE WIN by just existing! We win by being steadfast in the face of overwhelming odds! We win, by facing these odds, and yet keeping our humanity intact!
We win because a less resilient and resolute people would have ceased to exist long ago, consigned to the trash heap of history!
Whenever a mother endures unbearable pain and anguish, just so that her children are fed and educated,
We win!
I need not look no farther than my own Palestinian mother, who was married at 13, was a refugee on 3 different occasions, braved 2 wars, raised 6 children on her own in a male dominated society in very harsh times, although illiterate, could teach the most educated of men a few things, fought against crooked lawyers and Israeli officials and kept most of our family lands intact, even though on many occasions, they tried to take advantage of her!
Hanni
12/28 - Right here in the good old USA we hear of fathers and mothers speaking of the pride they feel sending their sons and daughter to fight for their country, even though they are fighting a war many thousands of miles away and one that is not directly threatening this country! I have heard MANY American fathers say that they will gladly send their children to fight and die for their country!
I reject much of what Tanya has written. She does not take the context in which some remarks are made!
Mike
12/28 - We win when it's least expected that we stand together, advocate for non-violence (because they want to label us as violent animals) and organize a movement so strong--one message repeated over and over again. Message: International laws to be abided and non-violent resistance--what would that look like... the road to concessions, I hope. Then those Congresspeople and organized lobbies will be dumbfounded and try to re-strategize on how to thwart our efforts. We in the States should rise up to the challenge because we are not suffering the same way.
Saffiya
12/28 - I am glad that you brought this up:
How many of you on this list have written or made an attempt to meet with your congressional representatives?
They should be hearing from you on a regular basis, even if its just to “educate them”!
How many have taken the time to write at least ONE letter to the Editor of your hometown or national paper?
It's easy belonging to these discussion groups, while doing nothing else! These discussion groups should be a source of inspiration and information so that you might be able to be more effective in your own activism! We here in America still can't seem to understand and learn how the “game is played in this country”…
I really can't help but shake my head and laugh when a member of one of these discussion lists threatens to leave and or reiterates that they are “wasting their time by being here”! No one is forcing anyone to be here or on any other list. We are here for ONE reason and ONE reason only:
To help and support the Palestinian people in their JUST and LEGITIMATE struggle for freedom!
Our own sense of “self importance” means absolutely NOTHING. In the end, we are all guided by our convictions and our own conscience…
Just my 2 “cents” worth…Not shekels!
Mike
12/28 - Tanya, don't you think the Palestinians are demonized enough without adding to it. Well-educated people have committed the worst crimes against humanity while many Palestinian mothers are no different than many mothers of soldiers who are proud of sending their children off to fight, kill and die for reasons that don't even make sense and who do not live under oppressive conditions, yet no one calls that "despicable." Marlene
12/28 - The dialogue of the deaf I believe my dear friends that you have reached with your dialogue on the question concerning suicide bombings, or what others call martyr operations, to a dead end, or what is known as: "The dialogue of the deaf" May I suggest that you discuss the question of Zionist atrocities, and consider that when they import young Jews from around the world, pollute their brains with Zionist racialism, put them in military fatigue and send them to kill the occupied indigenous population of Palestine and be killed, that this is more then suicide bombing???!!! Or put an end to this lub lub? Noting that some of the participants in this dialogue are equalizing between the occupier and the occupied, between the persecutor and the persecuted... and between the invaders and the resistance Palestinian Arabs face them with???
Tanya writes 12/28 - This exists, and it's despicable. But there *are* people, well educated and
very well off, who would do this?
It is only partly, according to them, to do with Israel . ”
very well off, who would do this?
It is only partly, according to them, to do with Israel . ”
12/28 - So you mean to tell me that “it is only partly to do with Israel ” that there are suicide bombers? So people kill themselves for sport? Or is it a “defect” in their makeup? Or maybe, they are just “barbarians and beasts” who possess no redeeming qualities as human beings? Or maybe they are not as advanced as the western culture, the very same culture and societies that gave us the crusades, the Holocaust, 2 World Wars, and the murder of over 3 million innocent people in Vietnam and other places, just to name a few!
In the past, I have tried to understand your often erroneous and misguided views, BUT you are totally out of line and DEAD wrong! Palestinian mothers DO NOT breed suicide bombers. You are taking the Zionist party line when you state such utter nonsense. I have seen many times over, when a Palestinian mother loses a son to an Israeli terrorist (yes they are terrorists in every sense of the word) and in that very emotional moment, they say things that are taken out of context, recorded and replayed and quoted ENDLES SL Y by Zionists and their sympathizers in the media, by Evangelical fanatics, and most effectively, by HonestReporting's propaganda “documentary”, Relentless, which has been touring the country and being screened and supported by the Christian Zionists!
In fact, you repeated, word for word, the same things that I have seen in the Zionist propaganda “documentary”!
NO Palestinian mother or father would ever choose death over a normal life for their children, a life that offers hope and a better tomorrow. No Palestinian mother would choose death over life for her children, NO matter what you and the Zionists say!
You underestimate and discount the love that Palestinian mothers have for their children as if they were “less” than other mothers in the world. In fact, I really have yet to see ANY mothers, who are as loving, caring, and willing to sacrifice as much as Palestinian mothers.
Palestinian mothers are often placed in the most difficult of circumstances imaginable. They endure hardships that you or any one else that is NOT living there can imagine.
In 1967, my own mother braved Israeli gunfire and humiliation just so that she could get us some water and a little bit of flour so that we would not starve as we sought refuge in scorpion infested caves for over 3 weeks. In 1967, my PALESTINIAN MOTHER stood between an Israeli soldier's machine gun and my older brother, telling the Israeli soldier he would have to kill her FIRST, before killing her child in front of her eyes!
My Palestinian mother was by no means “unique”, in fact, she more accurately represented Palestinian mothers than the demonizing nature of what you wrote!
During the first Intifada, whenever Israeli soldiers would try to arrest a Palestinian boy, Palestinian women who happened to be standing by would fight with the soldiers and prevent his arrest or beating by shielding him and saying that they were his MOTHER. This happened so often that an Israeli commander once lamented to the Palestinian women (about 5 of them who were claiming the young Palestinian as their son) “Do all Palestinian children have more than one mother?” To which a Palestinian mother answered, “Yes”, Palestinian children have many mothers, while you, the Israeli soldiers, have MANY fathers”…
Mike
12/28 - what the?????? hmmmm........Tanya's western mind has come into full view........thank you for revealing your true point of view.....now I understand Tanya; certainly Tanya means well and wants peace for everyone.........that's good........but, and it's a big butt, clearly Tanya knows NOT of the personal feelings of oppression and anger at having your family members killed by Israeli occupying forces, or knowing you can never return to your homeland, or knowing that the incredibly difficult life on the ground in Palestine is not going to change in their lifetimes; Tanya could easily envision herself walking into a Palestinian classroom with George Bush and walking to the front of the classroom and telling the teacher and kids: "No teacher, stop teaching those children to hate and fight your Israeli oppressors/rapists and killers. You should just accept this U.S. sponsored violence and systematic destruction of your homes and flesh. How dare you complain of your abuse? You're abusing the Israelis and your own kids, by fighting back....do not resist......just take this Israeli genocide with a coke and a smile. It's all your fault........stop discussng how Israelis have killed your family members and committed one of history's nastiest genocidal oppressions ever. Stop discussing your reality amongst yourselves, and just sit quitely and don't ever fight back this Israeli occupation." Tanya must not have ever heard of the six degrees of separation......I think Tanya has 600 degrees of separation between her and Palestinian reality -death and heartache by Israel. Tanya doesn't realize that for most Palestinians, there are no degrees of separation.....virtually every Palestinian has a family member who has been killed, wounded and/or personally or systematically abused by Israelis.........Tanya is viewing the plight of Palestinians through western glasses, dripping with Zionist rhetoric. Tanya doesn't realize that every single solitary act of violence by Palestinians is very much lawful and of a defensive nature. Apparently, Tanya doesn't realize who the aggressor is, and who the victim is..........no surprise there.......very typical of westerners.............Tanya would make a good Republican...........r o n
12/28 - ...I don't want to take sides in this but i have to say all what is happening to do with this is VERY NORMAL....we all come from diffrent backgrounds and have been raised in our families in diffrent ways from the other....and no two minds are the same....this is the people in this group and the world in general....we have diffrent minds so that we can complete each other as no one is an island whole of themselves! unfortunatley in this group it is obvious not only that we are diffrent people but some have diffrent intentions to why one would join this group... however i do second Adib's opinion here.....instead of focusing on those poor humans who've lived lifeless lives and died in that way terrible...we can help stop further by doing things like picking out a few crimes and asking the murders to be brought to justice as that way no one will think "i should take justice into my own hands as it doesn't exist in this dark world!"...such the killing of ordinary humans has become routine (And i remeber someone warning not to let that happen the second week of the intifada started...unfortunatley no one listens to people who make sense!) a few crimes more horrendous that others in natures can be picked like the shooting in the head of those two babies a 6 month year old and a 3 month year old baby boy in Hebron in summer 3 years ago.....and then work the way to get all the other criminals to a true justice..........until that happens in a world that infants so young get shot in the head what kind of hope exactly do we give to the teenaged and young adults of the family of the children killed that way??? anyway......just this and no need to get angry on anyone or gang up on anyone or getting a high blood pressure at anything.....we're diffrent people and everything about us diffrent so discord is only natural...... just my opinion........and i again i say what Adib said here i agree with.
12/28 - I see all the anger at Tanya for what she wrote. I hate to say this but I have heard some people say the same thing... they'd send their children to die. They say it, I believe, out of frustration. The few that have made it to the airwaves have been exploited to the full extent. It's ugly to see and taken out of context. Remember the video (I saw it in the U.S.) of the mother saying goodbye knowing her son that was going on a suicide mission--that's what they made us think anyway and shortly after Laura Bush said that she does not feel sorry for Palestinian mothers that send their children to die--or something like that. Those people are the exception... not the rule and maybe what was said or videoed was taken out of context--maybe not. The whole situation was brought about by the brutal occupation in my opinion.
Also, religion has a lot to do with it too. Palestine is not Islamic only and I think those that have done a lot of the violence against innocents are Muslims on a mission from God. When in fact it is so against Islam to do such a thing to oneself and others. That is how I was raised as a Muslim. I personally, don't think the Prophet (pbuh) would advocate for such a thing.
Saffiya
12/28 - I can say that I have and I have also initiated letter writing campaigns to both Senators from my state and gotten responses. I have gotten meetings with two Congresspeople and I also attended meetings with the State Dept., the House and Senate in DC through AAI in DC. I was able to address concerns directly to some of our elected officials with a group of like-minded people. It's easy to get involved but it's not easy to hold your temper and unfortunately, someone in the crowd started shouting and we all look like goofs. It's better these days because people are realizing the power of the pen and a calm demeanor. I encourage everyone to write letters to their papers (it's being done a lot) and organizing groups of people to visit their representatives.
The saddest thing to me was recently when I visited my Congressman, he said that "your people are interested in being American." He didn't view others that came in to see him as American and interested in any common issues. I'm sure that doesn't happen when pro-Israeli's visit but they are probably much more polished on their approach as well as much more united and well connected. One-on-one doesn't work with elected officials, they need to see a unified front.
Saffiya
12/28 - bull......bullcookies.......blame it on religion, instead of Israeli oppression....this is why I call you a westerner. you must be........you probably just got back from Target and Chili's. .r o n
12/28 - Let me ask you this Saffiya, since Israeli's have 'no problems'
with being violence animals and can care less about those who see
their ugliness, in fact taking great pride in their ugliness,
promoting the ugliest and most murderous to the highest offices in
their government, why should Palestinians be concerned about what
they are being called while they are being murdered by the truely
murderous animals, the Zionists?
Just type "Israeli Terrorism" into your search engine, and there
will appear many references to the history of the terrorist
activities of the "Jewish State" that so many Jews are running to
become members of.
Mik
with being violence animals and can care less about those who see
their ugliness, in fact taking great pride in their ugliness,
promoting the ugliest and most murderous to the highest offices in
their government, why should Palestinians be concerned about what
they are being called while they are being murdered by the truely
murderous animals, the Zionists?
Just type "Israeli Terrorism" into your search engine, and there
will appear many references to the history of the terrorist
activities of the "Jewish State" that so many Jews are running to
become members of.
Mik
12/28 - Why don't you, Ron, six months in to this arena of politics, stop digging when you're in the hole?
I've been involved with this for 20 years almost, so you only make yourself look utterly foolish by spreading this wherever you think you will have an audience.
Yeah yeah, I know nothing. You know everything. Good luck.
Tanya
I've been involved with this for 20 years almost, so you only make yourself look utterly foolish by spreading this wherever you think you will have an audience.
Yeah yeah, I know nothing. You know everything. Good luck.
Tanya
12/28 - typical American housewife-style response..........typical American snubbery.......you don't know my experience....how can you assign me six months experience when you don't know my experience? I was locked in solitary confinement in an American jail for reading a Muslim book banned in Texas.......I became Muslim in prison in the 1990's. I did over four years in a Texas penitentiary. I don't call myself a Muslim today......personal reasons........but I do understand the issues.....in fact, you don't have to be Muslim to understand who the lawbreakers are in this instance. You sound terribly frustrated and one-dimensional........r o n On Dec 28, 2004, at 11:54 AM, Tanya C. Hsu wrote: > Why don't you, Ron, six months in to this arena of politics, stop > digging when you're in the hole? > > I've been involved with this for 20 years almost, so you only make > yourself look utterly foolish by spreading this wherever you think you > will have an audience. > > Yeah yeah, I know nothing. You know everything. Good luck. > > Tanya
12/28 - This is my point Mik.
Raise one issue that's taboo, and god help you....turn it around and put it to the other side.
You know, Lenni Brenner did a marvellous thing. In his 51 Documents he spoke openly and publicly about the Jews who helped Hitler in WWII. This was a subject that Jews knew about but hid. I mentioned the book to a Jewish “half Zionist” friend of mine, who never wants to talk about politics. After three glasses of wine she broke down crying and admitted that her father was one of them. He rounded up the Jews, his own people, and put them on the trains.
Her secret had come out. But when I mentioned it to another Jewish friend...oh no, that didn't happen. It could never happen, don't talk about it, you are anti-Semitic Tanya. Never speak of this again.
Okay, stick your heads in the sand. Fine by me.
Raise one issue that's taboo, and god help you....turn it around and put it to the other side.
You know, Lenni Brenner did a marvellous thing. In his 51 Documents he spoke openly and publicly about the Jews who helped Hitler in WWII. This was a subject that Jews knew about but hid. I mentioned the book to a Jewish “half Zionist” friend of mine, who never wants to talk about politics. After three glasses of wine she broke down crying and admitted that her father was one of them. He rounded up the Jews, his own people, and put them on the trains.
Her secret had come out. But when I mentioned it to another Jewish friend...oh no, that didn't happen. It could never happen, don't talk about it, you are anti-Semitic Tanya. Never speak of this again.
Okay, stick your heads in the sand. Fine by me.
Don't I? 12/28
How on earth do you possibly know?
Tanya
How on earth do you possibly know?
Tanya
Why is it amusing to you that people are tired of the bickering?
12/28 - Why do you assume that I or others don't spend our own money flying around the country, flying to the Middle East, talking every day to politicians, talking every other day to representatives in the region? I don't tell anyone here who I met with, who I spoke with, or where I'm going. Mention one thing and people caustically remark that I'm the sole representative of the PNA ha ha, so tell me....What is the point?
Why do you think that many of us don't work, hard core, daily, get paid for and not paid for both, for change? How do you know I don't put in 12 hours a day 7 days a week and have done for years in promoting trade, medical relief, travel assistance, diplomatic relations, etc.?
The nerve of some people is astounding.
Write one message here and one doesn't do anything?
It's insulting.
Tanya
12/28 - Why do you assume that I or others don't spend our own money flying around the country, flying to the Middle East, talking every day to politicians, talking every other day to representatives in the region? I don't tell anyone here who I met with, who I spoke with, or where I'm going. Mention one thing and people caustically remark that I'm the sole representative of the PNA ha ha, so tell me....What is the point?
Why do you think that many of us don't work, hard core, daily, get paid for and not paid for both, for change? How do you know I don't put in 12 hours a day 7 days a week and have done for years in promoting trade, medical relief, travel assistance, diplomatic relations, etc.?
The nerve of some people is astounding.
Write one message here and one doesn't do anything?
It's insulting.
Tanya
12/28 - It's got nothing to do with demonising. It has everything to do with stop yelling and screaming and blaming every one else for all, and I mean all, of Palestine's woes.
Some people there need to look in the mirror.
Bring up one tiny issue and all hell breaks lose. What does that say about people here?
Tanya
Some people there need to look in the mirror.
Bring up one tiny issue and all hell breaks lose. What does that say about people here?
Tanya
12/28 - How many so-called "militants" by Israeli standards were turned in or set-up to be assassinated by family, neighbors, etc? A sad situation indeed. However, if we are able to look at this and understand why it happens, we will be better able to strategize on how to end it--leadership on the ground there. I agree with Tanya, when we don't like looking at something we attack the messenger... not the message. I don't think Tanya wants to see the Palestinians wiped out or blames them for their problems, she's just discussing a point that we know exists on some levels. We tend to explain it away. We have to overcome our own demons before we overcome the ones out to get us. It's just a horrific time for Palestinians and it's hard to look at or hear what ills them because of the overwhelming force against them. It doesn't make one unhelpful or evil. It's an appropriate discussion for the list.
12/28 - Do we become like them... no way. I care about my people and their place in history and the world now. I want my children to see a free Palestine. I want them to visit their home there. Ours is a noble and I don't like it be tainted by violence and stereotypes that don't fit it. That's my opinion. I see your point, but I don't agree. I would not be proud of a history like the Israeli's. Saffiya
12/28 - Tanya knows NOT of the personal feelings of oppression and anger at
> having your family members killed by Israeli occupying forces, or
> knowing you can never return to your homeland, or knowing that the
> incredibly difficult life on the ground in Palestine is not going to
> change in their lifetimes;
Do you?
> having your family members killed by Israeli occupying forces, or
> knowing you can never return to your homeland, or knowing that the
> incredibly difficult life on the ground in Palestine is not going to
> change in their lifetimes;
Do you?
12/28 - zionist dribble............clearly transparent............r o n
12/28 - I hate to say this but I have heard some people say the same thing... they'd send their children to die. They say it, I believe, out of frustration....Those people are the exception... not the rule and maybe what was said or videoed was taken out of context--maybe not. The whole situation was brought about by the brutal occupation in my opinion. Also, religion has a lot to do with it too. Palestine is not Islamic only and I think those that have done a lot of the violence against innocents are Muslims on a mission from God. When in fact it is so against Islam to do such a thing to oneself and others.
100% correct Saffiya. Exactly.
Tanya
100% correct Saffiya. Exactly.
Tanya
Sad 12/28
12/28 - I remember when Laura Bush said that she doesn't feel sorry for Palestinian mothers that send their children to die, but I wonder how she feels about her husband sending other's mother's children to die in Iraq because he's on a mission from God fighting against "evil," armed with nothing but a bunch of lies. It makes me also wonder why the world singles out Muslims as fanatics, especially Palestinians who have been subjected to nothing but humiliation and brutality. Marlene
12/28 - as a non-palestinian and a sharp observer from the side lines. I noticed many non-palestinians better swerving palestine than some palestinians themselves. I will use name but both cases are found on this list. Horst
12/28 - There is absolutely no doubt that the violence of the past decade has undermined and harmed the Palestinian cause ... In Feb. 2004, settler Baruch Goldstein murdered 29 Muslims at prayer in al-Khalil (Hebron) ... the world was outraged at the attack and Israel was under pressure ... and then six weeks later, Hamas launched its own attack in response, a suicide bombing at a civilian target What Hamas did was "one-up" Goldstein ... they overshadowned the viciousness of his killing with the viciousness of their own ... More importantly, in my opinion, Hamas is an organization that has never been elected to represent anyone, let alone the Palestinians ... it makes its own decisions not for the good of the Palestinians for for the good of its own message, which is a religious message that is as anti-Christian as it is anti-Muslim ... Islam does not preach violence and neither does Christianity ... but both allow you to defend yourself when your life is directly threatened ... neither allows anyone to avenge anything, to seek revenge or to be driven by vengeance ... Those who kill in the name of any religion or murderers not martyrs. The problem is an issue of relativity ... Israel's Likud government is a government of terrorists and murderers mostly ... Hamas is an organization of terrorists and murderers, mostly. The Likud is clever about how it kills ... Hamas is not. It doesn't care about public opinion, Israel does. Yet, public opinion inn the world: created Israel undermined the Palestinians enslaves the Arab and Muslim worlds continues to deny Palestinian rights Violence has gotten us nothing except more suffering. Palestine is being slowly erased by the extremists in Israel (and I do not view Israelis as bad people at all ... I view politics as good or bad, leaders as good or bad, and view the public often as victims). You can only use violence so far to achieve goals: either you use it to win a conflict, or you use it to reposition yourself in a broader world context (Sun Tzu) ... you never use violence unless it produces a specific end result that benefits you. Under the Palestinian Revolution, violence was used to reinforce the Palestinian peoples' will to stand up to Israel rather than waiting for the Arab tyrants to do anything, and to redefine the Palestinian cause. We do exist. We do have rights. We cannot be ignored. Since we could not win a war with Israel, violence had reached its strategic maximum value. The next logical move was the move Arafat made in 1988 to enter into negotiations with Israel, which has won nearly every war it has fought right off the bat ... it can't be defeated militarily and it exists in conflict and is strongest in conflict ... it is weakest when it is cast as the aggressor ... as long as Hamas one-ups Israel with a form of violence that is "viewed by the world" as more immoral and more ghastly than anything else, suicide bombings -- and I agree with that assessment -- the pressure is off Israel ... So, I guess I should thank the suicide bombers and the murderers who sent these young people to kill themselves in order to kill innocent Israeli civilians who have never done anything to hurt Palestinians except be Jewish or Israeli, for helping Israel to build all those settlements the world now says Israel can keep ... Or, hasn't anyone been noticing what's been happening while we debate? Ray Hanania
12/28 - Sherri is a farsi name , persian name , famous by the 1001 nights tales. but who is Raja ??? Horst
12/28 - I don't think it's "the world" that's letting Israel
keep it's settlements as much as it's Ariel Sharon's sock
puppet, George Bush and the cadre of Zionist supporting Congressmen
who are doing it. If it wasn't for the US veto power at the UN,
I'm sure Israel would be back inside it's 1967 borders by now.
Yet US foreign aide to many has bought their silence, and in being
silent, it has lead to Israel being allowed to go it's merry way.
Hopefully, that will not be forever. Not the way it is going now.
Even the Jewish prophets speak out against what the Zionists are
doing, and God shall not be mocked.
Mik
keep it's settlements as much as it's Ariel Sharon's sock
puppet, George Bush and the cadre of Zionist supporting Congressmen
who are doing it. If it wasn't for the US veto power at the UN,
I'm sure Israel would be back inside it's 1967 borders by now.
Yet US foreign aide to many has bought their silence, and in being
silent, it has lead to Israel being allowed to go it's merry way.
Hopefully, that will not be forever. Not the way it is going now.
Even the Jewish prophets speak out against what the Zionists are
doing, and God shall not be mocked.
Mik
12/29 -On Friday, December 17 th , I posted on this list and others, the Hanan Ashrawi interview that was carried in the Dec. 17 th issue of the Israeli paper, Haaretz. At that time, I thought that people on this list as well as other lists would be interested to read the thoughts of Ashrawi and her comments.
Since then, I have seen the discussion on this list go from discussing this piece, to arguing against the Right of Return, to blaming and accusing the Palestinian leadership and Arafat for conspiring to prevent people from getting urgently needed medical treatment, to discussing suicide bombings and morality, to blaming Palestinian mothers and fathers for “breeding suicide bombers”…
In 11 days, we managed to inject many things that really had no thread whatsoever in my original posting of the Ashrawi interview. I posted the very same interview on other lists, BUT they didn't elicit the same byproducts that we ended up with!
I guess, I would have not been very active in this discussion ( I rarely get caught up in these things) if it were not for Tanya's post about medical treatment which accused the PA (Palestinian Authority) with preventing people from getting the medical help they needed!
The reason I came out swinging on this issue is because her baseless accusations and the topic hit VERY close to home…
In 2002, during Eid Aludha prayers at the Beit Hanina Mosque, my 65 years old uncle (although an American citizen, he moved back home in 1997) collapsed in the Mosque. My brother and other family members called for an Israeli Ambulance (since he lived in Beit Hanina, he was under direct Israeli control and jurisdiction because Beit Hanina is considered part of Jerusalem ). The Israeli ambulance REFUSED to come to the mosque to get him. The Israelis had erected a temporary checkpoint on the main road that connected Beit Hanina and Jerusalem for the Eid celebrations and to prevent people from crossing to the Old City and praying at Al-Aqsa.
Instead my brother and my cousins were instructed to take him to the nearest checkpoint in their own car and there, the Israeli ambulance would pick him up. After arriving at the checkpoint, they were held up for an additional 15 PRECIOUS minutes before they were allowed them to take him to the waiting Israeli ambulance, which was only about 20 meters away. In the meantime, he slipped in to a coma, which he never woke up from! The Israeli doctors who treated him at Haddassa kept asking why they had waited so long to get him emergency medical care! They told my mother, that her brother would have survived if in fact, they were able to treat him earlier or if he had the urgent attention that he needed when he fell…
After arriving at the hospital, the Israeli authorities then made my brother and cousins come up with 10,000 Shekels (about $2300) as up front payment for his treatment and made them sign papers stating that they would be responsible for all medical treatment he receives. He was in Hadassa for about 9 days before he died. He never did awake from his coma…
NOW, my 87 years old father in law is sick and needs an emergency procedure that they could not perform in Ramallah. After 2 weeks of delays and waiting, my sister in-laws were finally able to “smuggle him” into Jerusalem where he will be undergoing an operation on Thursday. The doctors have stated that he will have a 50/50 chance of survival because of the delay…Some of you who have been reading my writings know all about my father in-law. I posted a piece about him a while back titled “Hussein from Lifta”…
If my father in-law would have been caught in the car of his grandson, his grandson would have been fined and his car would have been confiscated for 30 days for the “offense” of transporting a person with a West Bank ID card in his “ Jerusalem licensed” car. It doesn't matter if he was transporting his mother, father, brother, or a total stranger; the fine would have been the same…
I did not write this to elicit anyone's sympathy, and to be frank, I really do not need or want it! I just thought that people on this list, might at least know where I was coming from…
Mike
12/29 - I think the major problem is that the focus has shifted from where it should be. Denial of medical care is well-documented and going back years before there was ever a suicide bombing (1994), as you can see from Physicians for Human Rights' second report below. The first report from PHR deals with the brutalities inflicted on the Palestinians for resisting the occupation with civil disturbances for which it was reported that Israeli soldiers and police participated in an" uncontrolled epidemic of violence" in the West Bank and Gaza Strip. Both reports can be ordered if anyone is interested. Marlene
Israel and occupied territories
The Casualties of Conflict: Medical Care and Human Rights in the West Bank and Gaza Strip
PHR was the first human rights group to enter Israel shortly after the intifada began. In early 1988, a PHR delegation visited hospitals, blood banks, clinics, and homes in Jerusalem, the West Bank, and the Gaza Strip to investigate the medical consequences of civil disturbances and police and military actions. These actions included systematic beatings and use of high-velocity live ammunition, tear gas, and rubber bullets. The team examined and interviewed 103 patients, most of whom had been wounded within the preceding 24 hours and had similar wound patterns. This landmark report details the team's medical findings and concludes that Israeli soldiers and police participated in an uncontrolled epidemic of violence in the West Bank and Gaza Strip.
"A dramatic survey of the physical and psychological damage deliberately inflicted on thousands of Palestinians."
The Washington Post
The Washington Post
March 30, 1988, 46 pages $6.00 CODE: ISRCOFC
Human Rights on Hold: A Report on Emergency Measures and Access to Health Care in the Occupied Territories 1990—1992
Since the beginning of the Palestinian intifada in December 1987, Israeli soldiers and security personnel have used excessive force, including beatings, indiscriminate shootings, and inappropriate use of toxic gas, against the nearly two million Palestinians who live in the West Bank and Gaza Strip. They have also curtailed access to health care by restricting the movement of health personnel, closing pharmacies and clinics, blocking ambulances, obstructing access to medical care for critically-ill patients, and forcibly entering medical facilities. PHR conducted two studies — one in July 1990 of 24 Palestinian families in refugee camps and villages, and one in May 1991 of 44 families — to survey the cumulative effects of these abuses. The report concludes by calling on the Israeli government to establish and implement clear policies of restraint on the use of force and to lift restrictions on health personnel and health institutions in the West Bank and Gaza.
June 1993, 91 pages ISBN 1-879707-09-8, $10.00 CODE: ISRHRO
12/29 - You are correct. I feel that the Moderators should establish just 5 objectives for this list to follow and if the postings do not conform to the objectives the posts should not be published. The recent article by the BBC that was posted regarding the Cold War has nothing to do with Palestine. As we know, the Zionist state in the Middle East is the only State that has WMDs. This should continue to be our focus in addition to the daily hardships of the Palestinian people, their absolute right to return to the 1967 and the 1948 borders.
12/29 - Tanya, I use the word "demonization" because it reflects what the media usually reports on the Palestinians and needs to be vigorously countered by placing the focus where it belongs. No, Palestinians are not perfect, but it is a lot to even function rationally when anyone would be subjected to such daily systematic violence, abuse and humiliation. I've been watching the news and horrible destruction and loss of lives caused by the Tsunami, an uncontrollable force of nature, but I could not help thinking about the Palestinians who have lost their homes by human hands, and the indifference to it. Marlene
12/29 - Mike, I thought you were coming from a fine place all along.
I heard some justifiably righteous indignation, and that's fine.
I've seen far too many articles about the jackels who claim to be
Jews and Israeli's not only allowing pregnant mothers to die giving
birth at these 'checkpoints' but tormenting them verbally while they
are dying in the process of giving birth.
I wish your father in law well as he faces surgery. May he come thru
it fine!!!
Mik
I heard some justifiably righteous indignation, and that's fine.
I've seen far too many articles about the jackels who claim to be
Jews and Israeli's not only allowing pregnant mothers to die giving
birth at these 'checkpoints' but tormenting them verbally while they
are dying in the process of giving birth.
I wish your father in law well as he faces surgery. May he come thru
it fine!!!
Mik
12/29 - ron harold has stated
a) palestinians are not on the wrong side of th law, and have not
volated the law. even those you refer to as "suicide bombers" are not
illegal.
b) every single solitary act of violence by palestinains is very much
lawful.
ron harold claims that the geneva convention allows these acts of
violence.
obviously he has not read this document.
while giving those under occupation the right to retaliate it also
imposes some restaints on those acts.
among them being no acts on those who are not involved in th4e
occuaption. as far as i know children are not under any circumstance
involved actively in any occupation.
so therefore the acts of violence against isreali children do indeed
violate the 4th geneva convention as well as the convention on the
rights of the child.
ron harolds remarks deliberately and with foresight deny israeli
children of their human rights. and yet not one post has contradicted
him on this point. so everyone who posted after these remarks and the
moderators who knew of these remarks also beleive that israeli
children have no human rights.
12/29 - I'm sorry, you're wrong. .......btw, no one wants to see Israeli or Palestinian children die. The Geneva Conventions clearly states the occupied may evict the occupiers ".......by any means necessary." I remind you Israel initiated war on the Palestinians with their unlawful occupation of Palestine - Israel kept war on Palestine, unlawfully occupying Palestine for over 36 years now, killing Palestinians with American weapons; and 36 years of war has been the result, with children dying on both sides......it's war, it's horrible, it's terrible, but that is what wars have always been. You're howling at the death of Israeli children, but forget this criminal Israeli occupation has killed more Palestinian children than Israeli children - each child is important, so when you cry for Israeli children, cry for the Palestinian children too. I see you're failing to adequately represent this issue: Why aren't you calling for Israel to comply with the 65 U.N. resolutions Israel has been in violation of for 36 years now? Why don't you recognize the need for Israel to comply with the U.N. resolutions ordering Israel out of Palestine? Wouldn't you think the burglar Israel should at least leave the home they broke into? Wouldn't that be the right thing to do? Wouldn't that be a good start? contextually yours, .r o n
a) palestinians are not on the wrong side of th law, and have not
volated the law. even those you refer to as "suicide bombers" are not
illegal.
b) every single solitary act of violence by palestinains is very much
lawful.
ron harold claims that the geneva convention allows these acts of
violence.
obviously he has not read this document.
while giving those under occupation the right to retaliate it also
imposes some restaints on those acts.
among them being no acts on those who are not involved in th4e
occuaption. as far as i know children are not under any circumstance
involved actively in any occupation.
so therefore the acts of violence against isreali children do indeed
violate the 4th geneva convention as well as the convention on the
rights of the child.
ron harolds remarks deliberately and with foresight deny israeli
children of their human rights. and yet not one post has contradicted
him on this point. so everyone who posted after these remarks and the
moderators who knew of these remarks also beleive that israeli
children have no human rights.
12/29 - I'm sorry, you're wrong. .......btw, no one wants to see Israeli or Palestinian children die. The Geneva Conventions clearly states the occupied may evict the occupiers ".......by any means necessary." I remind you Israel initiated war on the Palestinians with their unlawful occupation of Palestine - Israel kept war on Palestine, unlawfully occupying Palestine for over 36 years now, killing Palestinians with American weapons; and 36 years of war has been the result, with children dying on both sides......it's war, it's horrible, it's terrible, but that is what wars have always been. You're howling at the death of Israeli children, but forget this criminal Israeli occupation has killed more Palestinian children than Israeli children - each child is important, so when you cry for Israeli children, cry for the Palestinian children too. I see you're failing to adequately represent this issue: Why aren't you calling for Israel to comply with the 65 U.N. resolutions Israel has been in violation of for 36 years now? Why don't you recognize the need for Israel to comply with the U.N. resolutions ordering Israel out of Palestine? Wouldn't you think the burglar Israel should at least leave the home they broke into? Wouldn't that be the right thing to do? Wouldn't that be a good start? contextually yours, .r o n
12/30.....you don't see Israeli suicide bombers, because Israel has endless American-made weapons to kill with. Here's something for you to contemplate: If Israel didn't have the massive forces and weaponry Israel uses on Palestinians, if Israel didn't have an Air Force, a Navy, Special Forces, M1-A1 Abram tanks, Apache helicopters, nuclear bombs, cruise missiles, Patriot batterys, armored personnel carriers, and one of the world's best-trained forces, would Israeli citizens be lining up to commit suicide bombings on Palestinians? No, they wouldn't. Why? Because Israelis are more humane than Palestinians? No, because Israelis are not living under the incredible (and apparently unimaginable) personal oppression Palestinians have hopelessly lived under, during this 36-year long Israeli occupation of Palestine. Israelis have it too good in their own land to worry about becoming a suicide bomber for their country - they have paid professionals armed with massive American weaponry to do that. I know for me, it's hard to imagine the lifelong, generational oppression Palestinians have endured for decades now. I can't imagine being so despondent over my life and my family's life that I would send my own son to die for my country. It reminds me of Americans sending their own kids to die in Iraq. Americans are willing to send their kids to die, for their cause. Israelis send their kids to die for their cause. But don't let Palestinians send their kids to die for their cause, lest they be called subhuman. Who's committing suicide for their country? I told my friend that if her son joins the Army, that would be like committing suicide, considering how bad Bush and Cheney need fresh, warm bodies for their operations in Iraq. .r o n dallas, texas
12.30 - you are right ron. while nobody likes to see a child injured, or
even sick, if an isreali child gets hurt it is becuse their parents
who allow them to be placed in danger, living on stolen lands in
which the rightful owner wants returned. the isreali parents might
as well let their children play on the highway.
also mr. fearplay, your comments about the moderators on this list
are unfounded and inapropriate. any violence directed towards any
child is absolutley condemed on this list.
even sick, if an isreali child gets hurt it is becuse their parents
who allow them to be placed in danger, living on stolen lands in
which the rightful owner wants returned. the isreali parents might
as well let their children play on the highway.
also mr. fearplay, your comments about the moderators on this list
are unfounded and inapropriate. any violence directed towards any
child is absolutley condemed on this list.
12/30 - I think one of the great problems is that while Palestinians are being taught what the rule of law is, the fact remains that there is no rule of law that applies to the Palestinians that anyone is abiding by, either under the Fourth Geneva Convention or under the Universal Declaration of Human Rights, although Israel is a member of the international community. The only laws that exists are discriminatory laws that apply to Palestinians,and a separate law to illegal Israeli settlers, even though they live in the same territory. The fact is also that Palestinian children are denied any rights from the moment they enter this world, and sometimes one can say while they're still in utero because their mothers are oftentimes denied medical treatment which has led to some of their deaths. Palestinians are an unprotected people. They are not even protected from "civilian" settlers who have plenty of arms and have long engaged in violence and property damage against the Palestinian population while the army simply looks, if they're not busy committing their own violence.
12/30 - ron harold has twice made the statement in his posts that to kill
israeli chldren do not violate international human rights law.
not one person on this list or any of the moderators have siad that
this is wrong.
in other words israeli children do not have human rights and are
therefore not human.
as far as i am personaly concerned it is a racist statement . and
everybody and i do mean everybody agrees with it.
as to why do they do i do not know.
as to the wider issues that ron harold has in his own unique way
pointed out that i did not in any way make mention off.
i am well aware of the dire situation in the middle east. i have been
following the conflict in great detail since 2000. so do not preach
to me. your understanding of the 4th geneva convention is nill.
it clearly states that those who are not taking in any part in the
violence is not to be targetted. those who do so are in violation of
the 4th geneva convention.
i am agains the killing of children. all the children.
i want the violence to stop. all the violence.
i want peace for each and every country in the middle east.
the statement in his posts that to kill
israeli chldren do not violate international human rights law.
not one person on this list or any of the moderators have siad that
this is wrong.
in other words israeli children do not have human rights and are
therefore not human.
as far as i am personaly concerned it is a racist statement . and
everybody and i do mean everybody agrees with it.
as to why do they do i do not know.
as to the wider issues that ron harold has in his own unique way
pointed out that i did not in any way make mention off.
i am well aware of the dire situation in the middle east. i have been
following the conflict in great detail since 2000. so do not preach
to me. your understanding of the 4th geneva convention is nill.
it clearly states that those who are not taking in any part in the
violence is not to be targetted. those who do so are in violation of
the 4th geneva convention.
i am agains the killing of children. all the children.
i want the violence to stop. all the violence.
i want peace for each and every country in the middle east.
israeli chldren do not violate international human rights law.
not one person on this list or any of the moderators have siad that
this is wrong.
in other words israeli children do not have human rights and are
therefore not human.
as far as i am personaly concerned it is a racist statement . and
everybody and i do mean everybody agrees with it.
as to why do they do i do not know.
as to the wider issues that ron harold has in his own unique way
pointed out that i did not in any way make mention off.
i am well aware of the dire situation in the middle east. i have been
following the conflict in great detail since 2000. so do not preach
to me. your understanding of the 4th geneva convention is nill.
it clearly states that those who are not taking in any part in the
violence is not to be targetted. those who do so are in violation of
the 4th geneva convention.
i am agains the killing of children. all the children.
i want the violence to stop. all the violence.
i want peace for each and every country in the middle east.
the statement in his posts that to kill
israeli chldren do not violate international human rights law.
not one person on this list or any of the moderators have siad that
this is wrong.
in other words israeli children do not have human rights and are
therefore not human.
as far as i am personaly concerned it is a racist statement . and
everybody and i do mean everybody agrees with it.
as to why do they do i do not know.
as to the wider issues that ron harold has in his own unique way
pointed out that i did not in any way make mention off.
i am well aware of the dire situation in the middle east. i have been
following the conflict in great detail since 2000. so do not preach
to me. your understanding of the 4th geneva convention is nill.
it clearly states that those who are not taking in any part in the
violence is not to be targetted. those who do so are in violation of
the 4th geneva convention.
i am agains the killing of children. all the children.
i want the violence to stop. all the violence.
i want peace for each and every country in the middle east.
12/30 It is wrong that Children or humans die in any conflict. Although it is
working, it is inevitable that the children of the colonialist aggressors
may be targeted in retaliation for the occupation of a whole country and the
killing of many of its people--including children in numbers that are much
higher than the casualties on the Israelis side.
Let us keep things in perspective. Not doing so is not intellectually
honest.
Sami
working, it is inevitable that the children of the colonialist aggressors
may be targeted in retaliation for the occupation of a whole country and the
killing of many of its people--including children in numbers that are much
higher than the casualties on the Israelis side.
Let us keep things in perspective. Not doing so is not intellectually
honest.
Sami
12/30 I asked you a legitimate question and all you can do instead is try to play on our emotions.......typical..... ..pro-Zionist propaganda........you shouldn't even open your mouth about the law, considering your terrorist nation Israel is the criminal nation deluxe model. Your Israeli government is responsible for the deaths of those Israeli children - why? how? Because your Israeli government decided long ago, Israel's continued illegal occupation and oppression of Palestine and Palestinians is more important than the safety of their own children. In other words, Israel has done nothing to truly reduce the motivation of the suicide bomber. Your Israeli government owes a duty to their own children to protect them - and that means not breaking the law in severely and grossly violating the rights of your next-door neighbor. Since your government broke into the house of Palestine, why would you be surprised or cry foul when Palestinians fight back the burglars Israel? Because Israeli children are killed? If you bring your kids with you to a gunfight YOU STARTED, and your kids get killed........who's fault is that? Yours, that's who. You don't see it in that perspective - you speak from the point of view Israel has no culpability in the deaths of their own children. Israeli children didn't invade Palestine, but their Israeli government is responsible for their little deaths. sincerely, r o n
12/30 - Everytime I hear an American broadcaster or citizen say this, it ticks
me off:
"If the Palestinians would just stop the suicide bombings and attacks,
then maybe a responsible Palestinian leader can get back to the
negotiating table and negotiate."
That kind of western/zionist rhetoric makes me long for Arafat's
proclamations.
.......negotiate? Negotiate what? Why should the homeowner negotiate
with the burglar who has broke into his home and terrorized the
homeowner?
There's nothing for Palestinians to negotiate.
There's only the need for Israel to comply with the law.
There's your Peace Plan - follow the law, Israel!
.r o n
me off:
"If the Palestinians would just stop the suicide bombings and attacks,
then maybe a responsible Palestinian leader can get back to the
negotiating table and negotiate."
That kind of western/zionist rhetoric makes me long for Arafat's
proclamations.
.......negotiate? Negotiate what? Why should the homeowner negotiate
with the burglar who has broke into his home and terrorized the
homeowner?
There's nothing for Palestinians to negotiate.
There's only the need for Israel to comply with the law.
There's your Peace Plan - follow the law, Israel!
.r o n
12/31 -Your statement accusing Ron of "racist" remarks is totally misplaced here, and would apply to any other members of this forum who agree with him. Notwithstanding the law and how anyone wishes to interpret it, the actions of the Palestinians are against their brutal "occupiers," and not because anyone is singling out "Israelis" in particular, which means that the occupiers could be anyone. That is exactly what Ron is saying. I can only assume if you think this is racist, then you would have no choice but to concede that Israel's occupation which singles out the Palestinian identity for the worst form of collective humiliation, abuse and violence irrespective of whether there is any wrongdoing, which is applied through a dual set of laws, one for Israeli citizens and one for Palestinians residing in the same territory is indeed racist! Y ou would have to also concede that Israel's treatment and laws, or proposed laws that have actually come before the Knesset against its its own Palestinian Arab citizens, are also racist. Let's keep the "racism" card where it appropriately belongs. . Marlene
12/31 - Left out a very important word here. The actions of the Palestinians are not only against their "occupiers," but also against their " colonizer s", which makes it unlike other occupations, such as the German occupation of France or the British occupation of Palestine, whereas German and/or British subjects were not being brought into those countries to establish communities at the expense of the indigenous population by stealing their lands and destroying their homes based entirely on their ethnic or national identity. Marlene.
12/31 - Against my better judgment, I will add something here (After all the debacle with Tanya and the brouhaha that ensued whereby we were AGAIN distracted and divided I had decided to stop commenting on much of what is said on this list) …
Last year, I was one of the participants in a dialogue group that included American Jews/Zionists, Israeli Jews/Zionists, Palestinians, and Americans. We had former Israeli soldiers (turned peaceniks) as well as some very hard line Zionists among the Jews present.
When I brought up the issue of the Occupation and settlements, asking them about “the importance” of these settlements, the hard line American Zionist and his Israeli counterpart responded that they were “VITAL TO THE SECURITY OF THE STATE OF ISRAEL”! When I then inquired them to explain this to me, they responded that the settlements were MUCH more than just a place for Jews to live; they were in fact “THE FIRST LINE OF DEFENSE FOR THE STATE OF ISRAEL AGAINST THE ARABS”!
This exchange was brought about after the Zionist wanted us the Palestinians to “condemn, here and now the terrorist operation in the Hebron area settlement whereby a Palestinian fighter infiltrated a settlement and killed a Jewish family, including 2 children”…
After hearing their response to my question about settlements, I then asked them if indeed the settlements were “Israel's front line defenses against the Arab ”, then they would have to be categorized as military targets and NOT civilian. After all, the each settlement comes with its own armory and paramilitary and military guards and militia!
The waffled for a bit, but when I pressed the issue for them to either categorize the settlements as either ‘military bases” or ‘civilian population centers” (they have a problem with this because it goes against the Geneva Convention rules about moving your own civilian population into occupied territories), they relented and said that the settlements would be best described as “military”…
After hearing this, I pounced on them, accusing the Jewish settlers of “child cruelty” in the worst degree for moving their children to a war zone and then have them live in a “military area” thus exposing them to the inherent dangers of a war Zone…
Just my 2 “iqroosh” (the old Palestinian currency) worth… (As opposed to someone else's Shekels)
Mike
12/31 - I could add also that the military does not control the settlers nor their well-documented violence, but the settlers control the military. Just my masari's (money) worth. Marlene
Jan 2, 2005 - to introduce my self
i am michael . i live in australia. i have absolutely no ties with
israel or any jewish groups.
as stated i am against the violence.
i am against the deaths of ALL the children
i am against the wall.
i am for human rights being upheld for everyone.
i am currently going through the documents at the un web site.
very interesting reading . i highly recommend it.
i have been thrown off a pro-israeli site for arguing aginst the
murder of palestinian children.
i have been thrown of a pro-palestinian site for arguing against the
murder of israeli children.
but enough about me.
ron harold has done what other speakers have done. without knowing
one thing about and is against my statement that israeli children are
protected by human rights law he procedes to label me a pro-zionist.
also a jew who supports the israeli state/government by using such
phrases as "your terrorist nation" and "your isreali governement"
and calls the statement that israeli children are protected by human
rights lws/legislation as "pro-zionist propganda"
now the rest of the group are using the tired ideologoy that the
suicide bombers, who they hate and are against, are justified to
attack israeli children.
there is not one thing that justifies any attack against any child.
no doubt ron harold will call this "pro-zionist propaganda" as well.
according to marlene
israeli children are occupiers. more information.
i occupation is racist. i am against and have emailed sharon to stop
occupation and pull out of west bank and gaza strip.
she also states that there are laws passed to be enacted against the
arab population and she calls them racist. i am against racism
regardless. these racist laws should be replaced by non-racist laws.
the human rights committee of the un have been investigating israel
and these laws among other things. go and read the documents on the
un web site. which i know you have not done so.
ron harold question
i should call on israel to obey the 65 un resolutions.
i do so and i also call on the palestinains to honour their
obligations that they have entered into. including those un
resolutions which apply to them.
we are after peace in the middle east. we each have different ideas
on how this is to be achieved. but justice for all and human rights
i am michael . i live in australia. i have absolutely no ties with
israel or any jewish groups.
as stated i am against the violence.
i am against the deaths of ALL the children
i am against the wall.
i am for human rights being upheld for everyone.
i am currently going through the documents at the un web site.
very interesting reading . i highly recommend it.
i have been thrown off a pro-israeli site for arguing aginst the
murder of palestinian children.
i have been thrown of a pro-palestinian site for arguing against the
murder of israeli children.
but enough about me.
ron harold has done what other speakers have done. without knowing
one thing about and is against my statement that israeli children are
protected by human rights law he procedes to label me a pro-zionist.
also a jew who supports the israeli state/government by using such
phrases as "your terrorist nation" and "your isreali governement"
and calls the statement that israeli children are protected by human
rights lws/legislation as "pro-zionist propganda"
now the rest of the group are using the tired ideologoy that the
suicide bombers, who they hate and are against, are justified to
attack israeli children.
there is not one thing that justifies any attack against any child.
no doubt ron harold will call this "pro-zionist propaganda" as well.
according to marlene
israeli children are occupiers. more information.
i occupation is racist. i am against and have emailed sharon to stop
occupation and pull out of west bank and gaza strip.
she also states that there are laws passed to be enacted against the
arab population and she calls them racist. i am against racism
regardless. these racist laws should be replaced by non-racist laws.
the human rights committee of the un have been investigating israel
and these laws among other things. go and read the documents on the
un web site. which i know you have not done so.
ron harold question
i should call on israel to obey the 65 un resolutions.
i do so and i also call on the palestinains to honour their
obligations that they have entered into. including those un
resolutions which apply to them.
we are after peace in the middle east. we each have different ideas
on how this is to be achieved. but justice for all and human rights
being observed for all should be amongst those ideas. web site. which i know you have not done so.
ron harold question
i should call on israel to obey the 65 un resolutions.
i do so and i also call on the palestinains to honour their
obligations that they have entered into. including those un
resolutions which apply to them.
we are after peace in the middle east. we each have different ideas
on how this is to be achieved. but justice for all and human rights
being observed for all should be amongst those ideas.
ron harold question
i should call on israel to obey the 65 un resolutions.
i do so and i also call on the palestinains to honour their
obligations that they have entered into. including those un
resolutions which apply to them.
we are after peace in the middle east. we each have different ideas
on how this is to be achieved. but justice for all and human rights
being observed for all should be amongst those ideas.
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