the alps
Sunday, December 18, 2005
A story of American Torture on foreign soil
America kidnapped meBy Khaled El-Masri, KHALED EL-MASRI, a German citizen born in Lebanon, was a car salesman before he was detained in December 2003.
THE U.S. POLICY of "extraordinary rendition" has a human face, and it is mine.I am still recovering from an experience that was completely beyond the pale, outside the bounds of any legal framework and unacceptable in any civilized society. Because I believe in the American system of justice, I sued George Tenet, the former CIA director, last week. What happened to me should never be allowed to happen again.
I was born in Kuwait and raised in Lebanon. In 1985, when Lebanon was being torn apart by civil war, I fled to Germany in search of a better life. There I became a citizen and started my own family. I have five children.On Dec. 31, 2003, I took a bus from Germany to Macedonia. When we arrived, my nightmare began.
Macedonian agents confiscated my passport and detained me for 23 days. I was not allowed to contact anyone, including my wife.At the end of that time, I was forced to record a video saying I had been treated well. Then I was handcuffed, blindfolded and taken to a building where I was severely beaten. My clothes were sliced from my body with a knife or scissors, and my underwear was forcibly removed. I was thrown to the floor, my hands pulled behind me, a boot placed on my back. I was humiliated. Eventually my blindfold was removed, and I saw men dressed in black, wearing black ski masks. I did not know their nationality. I was put in a diaper, a belt with chains to my wrists and ankles, earmuffs, eye pads, a blindfold and a hood.
I was thrown into a plane, and my legs and arms were spread-eagled and secured to the floor. I felt two injections and became nearly unconscious. I felt the plane take off, land and take off. I learned later that I had been taken to Afghanistan.There, I was beaten again and left in a small, dirty, cold concrete cell. I was extremely thirsty, but there was only a bottle of putrid water in the cell. I was refused fresh water.That first night I was taken to an interrogation room where I saw men dressed in the same black clothing and ski masks as before. They stripped and photographed me, and took blood and urine samples. I was returned to the cell, where I would remain in solitary confinement for more than four months.
The following night my interrogations began. They asked me if I knew why I had been detained. I said I did not. They told me that I was now in a country with no laws, and did I understand what that meant? They asked me many times whether I knew the men who were responsible for the Sept. 11 attacks, if I had traveled to Afghanistan to train in camps and if I associated with certain people in my town of Ulm, Germany. I told the truth: that I had no connection to any terrorists, had never been in Afghanistan and had never been involved in any extremism.
I asked repeatedly to meet with a representative of the German government, or a lawyer, or to be brought before a court. Always, my requests were ignored.In desperation, I began a hunger strike. After 27 days without food, I was taken to meet with two Americans the prison director and another man, referred to as "the Boss." I pleaded with them to release me or bring me before a court, but the prison director replied that he could not release me without permission from Washington. He also said that he believed I should not be detained in the prison.
After 37 days without food, I was dragged to the interrogation room, where a feeding tube was forced through my nose into my stomach. I became extremely ill, suffering the worst pain of my life.After three months, I was taken to meet an American who said he had traveled from Washington, D.C., and who promised I would soon be released. I was also visited by a German-speaking man who explained that I would be allowed to return home but warned that I was never to mention what had happened because the Americans were determined to keep the affair a secret.
On May 28, 2004, almost five months after I was first kidnapped, I was blindfolded, handcuffed and chained to an airplane seat. I was told we would land in a country other than Germany, because the Americans did not want to leave traces of their involvement, but that I would eventually get to Germany.After we landed I was driven into the mountains, still blindfolded. My captors removed my handcuffs and blindfold and told me to walk down a dark, deserted path and not to look back. I was afraid I would be shot in the back.I turned a bend and encountered three men who asked why I was illegally in Albania.
They took me to the airport, where I bought a ticket home (my wallet had been returned to me). Only after the plane took off did I believe I was actually going home. I had long hair, a beard and had lost 60 pounds. My wife and children had gone to Lebanon, believing I had abandoned them.
Thankfully, now we are together again in Germany.I still do not know why this happened to me. I have been told that the American secretary of State, Condoleezza Rice, confirmed in a meeting with the German chancellor that my case was a "mistake" and that American officials later denied that she said this. I was not present at this meeting. No one from the American government has ever contacted me or offered me any explanation or apology for the pain they caused me.
Secretary Rice has stated publicly, during a discussion of my case, that "any policy will sometimes result in errors." But that is exactly why extraordinary rendition is so dangerous. As my interrogators made clear when they told me I was being held in a country with no laws, the very purpose of extraordinary rendition is to deny a person the protection of the law. I
begged my captors many times to bring me before a court, where I could explain to a judge that a mistake had been made. Every time, they refused. In this way, a "mistake" that could have been quickly corrected led to several months of cruel treatment and meaningless suffering, for me and my entire family.My captors would not bring me to court, so last week I brought them to court.
Helped by the American Civil Liberties Union, I sued the U.S. government because I believe what happened to me was illegal and should not be done to others. And I believe the American people, when they hear my story, will agree.
THE U.S. POLICY of "extraordinary rendition" has a human face, and it is mine.I am still recovering from an experience that was completely beyond the pale, outside the bounds of any legal framework and unacceptable in any civilized society. Because I believe in the American system of justice, I sued George Tenet, the former CIA director, last week. What happened to me should never be allowed to happen again.
I was born in Kuwait and raised in Lebanon. In 1985, when Lebanon was being torn apart by civil war, I fled to Germany in search of a better life. There I became a citizen and started my own family. I have five children.On Dec. 31, 2003, I took a bus from Germany to Macedonia. When we arrived, my nightmare began.
Macedonian agents confiscated my passport and detained me for 23 days. I was not allowed to contact anyone, including my wife.At the end of that time, I was forced to record a video saying I had been treated well. Then I was handcuffed, blindfolded and taken to a building where I was severely beaten. My clothes were sliced from my body with a knife or scissors, and my underwear was forcibly removed. I was thrown to the floor, my hands pulled behind me, a boot placed on my back. I was humiliated. Eventually my blindfold was removed, and I saw men dressed in black, wearing black ski masks. I did not know their nationality. I was put in a diaper, a belt with chains to my wrists and ankles, earmuffs, eye pads, a blindfold and a hood.
I was thrown into a plane, and my legs and arms were spread-eagled and secured to the floor. I felt two injections and became nearly unconscious. I felt the plane take off, land and take off. I learned later that I had been taken to Afghanistan.There, I was beaten again and left in a small, dirty, cold concrete cell. I was extremely thirsty, but there was only a bottle of putrid water in the cell. I was refused fresh water.That first night I was taken to an interrogation room where I saw men dressed in the same black clothing and ski masks as before. They stripped and photographed me, and took blood and urine samples. I was returned to the cell, where I would remain in solitary confinement for more than four months.
The following night my interrogations began. They asked me if I knew why I had been detained. I said I did not. They told me that I was now in a country with no laws, and did I understand what that meant? They asked me many times whether I knew the men who were responsible for the Sept. 11 attacks, if I had traveled to Afghanistan to train in camps and if I associated with certain people in my town of Ulm, Germany. I told the truth: that I had no connection to any terrorists, had never been in Afghanistan and had never been involved in any extremism.
I asked repeatedly to meet with a representative of the German government, or a lawyer, or to be brought before a court. Always, my requests were ignored.In desperation, I began a hunger strike. After 27 days without food, I was taken to meet with two Americans the prison director and another man, referred to as "the Boss." I pleaded with them to release me or bring me before a court, but the prison director replied that he could not release me without permission from Washington. He also said that he believed I should not be detained in the prison.
After 37 days without food, I was dragged to the interrogation room, where a feeding tube was forced through my nose into my stomach. I became extremely ill, suffering the worst pain of my life.After three months, I was taken to meet an American who said he had traveled from Washington, D.C., and who promised I would soon be released. I was also visited by a German-speaking man who explained that I would be allowed to return home but warned that I was never to mention what had happened because the Americans were determined to keep the affair a secret.
On May 28, 2004, almost five months after I was first kidnapped, I was blindfolded, handcuffed and chained to an airplane seat. I was told we would land in a country other than Germany, because the Americans did not want to leave traces of their involvement, but that I would eventually get to Germany.After we landed I was driven into the mountains, still blindfolded. My captors removed my handcuffs and blindfold and told me to walk down a dark, deserted path and not to look back. I was afraid I would be shot in the back.I turned a bend and encountered three men who asked why I was illegally in Albania.
They took me to the airport, where I bought a ticket home (my wallet had been returned to me). Only after the plane took off did I believe I was actually going home. I had long hair, a beard and had lost 60 pounds. My wife and children had gone to Lebanon, believing I had abandoned them.
Thankfully, now we are together again in Germany.I still do not know why this happened to me. I have been told that the American secretary of State, Condoleezza Rice, confirmed in a meeting with the German chancellor that my case was a "mistake" and that American officials later denied that she said this. I was not present at this meeting. No one from the American government has ever contacted me or offered me any explanation or apology for the pain they caused me.
Secretary Rice has stated publicly, during a discussion of my case, that "any policy will sometimes result in errors." But that is exactly why extraordinary rendition is so dangerous. As my interrogators made clear when they told me I was being held in a country with no laws, the very purpose of extraordinary rendition is to deny a person the protection of the law. I
begged my captors many times to bring me before a court, where I could explain to a judge that a mistake had been made. Every time, they refused. In this way, a "mistake" that could have been quickly corrected led to several months of cruel treatment and meaningless suffering, for me and my entire family.My captors would not bring me to court, so last week I brought them to court.
Helped by the American Civil Liberties Union, I sued the U.S. government because I believe what happened to me was illegal and should not be done to others. And I believe the American people, when they hear my story, will agree.
Florence
This is one of my last days in Florence. I decided that it is about time that I took some photos.
It is a beautiful city, full of tourists, American students, and the economy is based on those facts.
The locals do not seem very happy, tourism is down and the student enrollment is also down.
Many of the shops shut down and the locals are moving out of the city because it is too expensive.
It is a beautiful city, full of tourists, American students, and the economy is based on those facts.
The locals do not seem very happy, tourism is down and the student enrollment is also down.
Many of the shops shut down and the locals are moving out of the city because it is too expensive.
Thursday, December 15, 2005
Reasons???
There could have been other reasons for the American/Anglo war waged against Iraq, excluding the falacy of WMD, the "Iraqi threat" to U.S. security...., such as oil and America's colonialist aim to comtrol the world, but the most important aim is the security of the Zionist entity... and the creation of Arab regimes friendly, or under Israeli/American control... ASK Iraq : A War For Israel ?
By Mark Weber
Dec. 2004
"Jewish-Zionist plans for war against
Iraq had been in place for years."
"For some Jewish leaders, the Iraq war is part of a long-range effort to install Israel-friendly regimes across the Middle East ."
"The regimes that richly deserve to be overthrown and replaced are not confined to the three singled-out members of the axis of evil [ Iraq , Iran , North Korea ]. At a minimum, the axis should extend to Syria and Lebanon and Libya , as well as 'friends' of America like the Saudi royal family and Egypt 's Hosni Mubarak, along with the Palestinian Authority, whether headed by Arafat or one of his henchmen."
"This is so widely understood in Washington that US Senator Ernest Hollings was moved in May 2004 to acknowledge that the US invaded Iraq
"to secure Israel ," and "everybody" knows it."
The United States Invasion of Iraq in March-April 2003, and the occupation of the country since then, has cost more than a thousand American lives and many tens of billions of dollars, and has brought death to many thousands of Iraqis.
Why did President Bush decide to go to war? In whose interests was it launched?
In the months leading up to the attack, President Bush and other high-ranking US officials repeatedly warned that the threat posed to the US and world by the Baghdad regime was so grave and imminent that the United States had to act quickly to bomb, invade and occupy Iraq.
On September 28, 2002, for example, he said: "The danger to our country is grave and it is growing. The Iraqi regime possesses biological and chemical weapons, is rebuilding the facilities to make more and, according to the British government, could launch a biological or chemical attack in as little as 45 minutes after the order is given... This regime is seeking a nuclear bomb, and with fissile material could build one within a year."
On March 6, 2003, President Bush declared: "Saddam Hussein and his weapons are a direct threat to this country, to our people, and to all free people... I believe Saddam Hussein is a threat to the American people. I believe he's a threat to the neighborhood in which he lives. And I've got good evidence to believe that. He has weapons of mass destruction... The American people know that Saddam Hussein has weapons of mass destruction."
These claims were untrue. As the world now knows, Iraq had no dangerous "weapons of mass destruction," and posed no threat to the US . Moreover, alarmist suggestions that the Baghdad regime was working with the al-Qaeda terror network likewise proved to be without foundation.
So if the official reasons given for the war were untrue, why did the United States attack?
Whatever the secondary reasons for the Iraq war, the crucial factor in President Bush's decision to attack was to help Israel . With support from Israel and America's Jewish-Zionist lobby, and prodded by Jewish "neo-conservatives" holding high-level positions in his administration, President Bush - who was already fervently committed to Israel - resolved to invade and subdue one of Israel's chief regional enemies.
This is so widely understood in Washington that US Senator Ernest Hollings was moved in May 2004 to acknowledge that the US invaded Iraq "to secure Israel ," and "everybody" knows it. He also identified three of the influential pro-Israel Jews in Washington who played an important role in prodding the US into war: Richard Perle, chair of the Pentagon's Defense Policy Board; Paul Wolfowitz, Deputy Defense Secretary; and Charles Krauthammer, columnist and author. [1]
Hollings referred to the cowardly reluctance of his Congressional colleagues to acknowledge this truth openly, saying that "nobody is willing to stand up and say what is going on." Due to "the pressures we get politically," he added, members of Congress uncritically support Israel and its policies.
Some months before the invasion, retired four-star US Army General and former NATO Supreme Allied Commander Wesley Clark said in an interview:
"Those who favor this attack [by the US against Iraq ] now will tell you candidly, and privately, that it is probably true that Saddam Hussein is no threat to the United States . But they are afraid at some point he might decide if he had a nuclear weapon to use it against Israel ." [2]
Fervently Pro-Israel
President Bush's fervent support for Israel and its hardline premier is well known. He reaffirmed it, for example, in June 2002 in a major speech on the Middle East . In the view of "leading Israeli commentators," the London Times reported, the address was "so pro-Israel that it might have been written by Ariel Sharon ." [3]
Condoleeza Rice, Bush's National Security Advisor, echoed the President's outlook in a May 2003 interview, saying that the "security of Israel is the key to security of the world." [4]
In an address to pro-Israel activists at the 2004 convention of the American Israel Public Affairs Committee (AIPAC), Bush said: "The United States is strongly committed, and I am strongly committed, to the security of Israel as a vibrant Jewish state." He also told the gathering: "By defending the freedom and prosperity and security of Israel , you're also serving the cause of America ." [5]
Long Range Plans
Jewish-Zionist plans for war against Iraq had been in place for years.
In mid-1996, a policy paper prepared for then-Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu outlined a grand strategy for Israel in the Middle East . Entitled "A Clean Break: A New Strategy for Securing the Realm," it was written under the auspices of an Israeli think tank, the Institute for Advanced Strategic and Political Studies. Specifically, it called for an "effort [that] can focus on removing Saddam Hussein from power in Iraq , an important Israeli strategic objective in its own right..." [6]
The authors of "A Clean Break" included Richard Perle, Douglas Feith, and David Wurmser, three influential Jews who later held high-level positions in the Bush administration, 2001-2004: Perle as chair of the Defense Policy Board, Feith as Undersecretary of Defense, and Wurmser as special assistant to the Undersecretary of State for Arms Control.
The role played by Bush administration officials who are associated with two major pro-Zionist "neoconservative" research centers has come under scrutiny from The Nation, the influential public affairs weekly. [7]
The author, Jason Vest, examined the close links between the Jewish Institute for National Security Affairs (JINSA) and the Center for Security Policy (CSP), detailing the ties between these groups and various politicians, arms merchants, military men, wealthy pro-Israel American Jews, and Republican presidential administrations.
JINSA and CSP members, notes Vest, "have ascended to powerful government posts, where... they've managed to weave a number of issues - support for national missile defense, opposition to arms control treaties, championing of wasteful weapons systems, arms aid to Turkey and American unilateralism in general - into a hard line, with support for the Israeli right at its core... On no issue is the JINSA/CSP hard line more evident than in its relentless campaign for war - not just with Iraq , but 'total war,' as Michael Ledeen, one of the most influential JINSAns in Washington , put it... For this crew, 'regime change' by any means necessary in Iraq , Iran , Syria , Saudi Arabia and the Palestinian Authority is an urgent imperative."
Samuel Francis, author, editor and columnist, has also looked into the "neo-conservative" role in fomenting war. [8]
"My own answer," he wrote, "is that the lie [that a massively-armed Iraq posed a grave and imminent threat to the US ] was fabricated by neo-conservatives in the administration whose first loyalty is to Israel and its interests and who wanted the United States to smash Iraq because it was the biggest potential threat to Israel in the region. They are known to have been pushing for war with Iraq since at least 1996, but they could not make an effective case for it until after Sept. 11, 2001...
"What has been happening inside the Bush administration is no less a nest of treason than the Soviet spy rings of the New Deal era, and if political reality doesn't demand its exposure, simple loyalty to the United States does."
In the aftermath of the 2001 Nine-Eleven terror attacks, ardently pro-Zionist "neo-conservatives" in the Bush administration - who for years had sought a Middle East war to bolster Israel 's security in the region - exploited the tragedy to press their agenda. In this they were backed by the Israeli government, which also pressured the White House to strike Iraq .
The Jerusalem correspondent for the Guardian, the respected British daily, reported in August 2002: " Israel signalled its decision yesterday to put public pressure on President George Bush to go ahead with a military attack on Iraq , even though it believes Saddam Hussein may well retaliate by striking Israel ." [9]
Three months before the US invasion, the well-informed Washington journalist Robert Novak reported that Israeli prime minister Sharon was telling American political leaders that "the greatest US assistance to Israel would be to overthrow Saddam Hussein's Iraqi regime." Moreover, added Novak, "that view is widely shared inside the Bush administration, and is a major reason why US forces today are assembling for war." [10]
Israel 's spy agencies were a "full partner" with the US and Britain in producing greatly exaggerated prewar assessments of Iraq 's ability to wage war, a former senior Israeli military intelligence official has acknowledged. Shlomo Bron, a brigadier general in the Israel army reserves, and a senior researcher at a major Israeli think tank, said that intelligence provided by Israel played a significant role in supporting the US and British case for making war. Israeli intelligence agencies, he said, "badly overestimated the Iraqi threat to Israel and reinforced the American and British belief that the weapons [of mass destruction] existed." [11]
For some Jewish leaders, the Iraq war is part of a long-range effort to install Israel-friendly regimes across the Middle East . Norman Podhoretz, a prominent Jewish writer and an ardent supporter of Israel, has been for years editor of Commentary, the influential Zionist monthly. In the Sept. 2002 issue he wrote: "The regimes that richly deserve to be overthrown and replaced are not confined to the three singled-out members of the axis of evil [ Iraq , Iran , North Korea ]. At a minimum, the axis should extend to Syria and Lebanon and Libya , as well as 'friends' of America like the Saudi royal family and Egypt 's Hosni Mubarak, along with the Palestinian Authority, whether headed by Arafat or one of his henchmen."
Patrick J. Buchanan, the well-known writer and commentator, and former White House Communications director, has been blunt in identifying those who pushed for war: [12]
"We charge that a cabal of polemicists and public officials seek to ensnare our country in a series of wars that are not in America 's interests. We charge them with colluding with Israel to ignite those wars and destroy the Oslo Accords. We charge them with deliberately damaging US relations with every state in the Arab world that defies Israel or supports the Palestinian people's right to a homeland of their own. We charge that they have alienated friends and allies all over the Islamic and Western world through their arrogance, hubris, and bellicosity...
"Cui Bono? For whose benefit these endless wars in a region that holds nothing vital to America save oil, which the Arabs must sell us to survive? Who would benefit from a war of civilizations between the West and Islam?
"Answer: one nation, one leader, one party. Israel , Sharon , Likud."
Uri Avnery - an award-winning Israeli journalist and author, and a three-time member of Israel 's parliament - sees the Iraq war as an _expression of immense Jewish influence and power. In an essay written some weeks after the US invasion, he wrote: [13]
"Who are the winners? They are the so-called neo-cons, or neo-conservatives. A compact group, almost all of whose members are Jewish. They hold the key positions in the Bush administration, as well as in the think-tanks that play an important role in formulating American policy and the ed-op pages of the influential newspapers... The immense influence of this largely Jewish group stems from its close alliance with the extreme right-wing Christian fundamentalists, who nowadays control Bush's Republican party. ...Seemingly, all this is good for Israel . America controls the world, we control America . Never before have Jews exerted such an immense influence on the center of world power."
In Britain , a veteran member of Britain 's House of Commons bluntly declared in May 2003 that Jews had taken control of America 's foreign policy, and had succeeded in pushing the US into war. "A Jewish cabal have taken over the government in the United States and formed an unholy alliance with fundamentalist Christians," said Tam Dalyell, a Labour party deputy and the longest-serving House member. "There is far too much Jewish influence in the United States ," he added. [14]
Summary
For many years now, American presidents of both parties have been staunchly committed to Israel and its security. This entrenched policy is an _expression of the Jewish-Zionist grip on America 's political and cultural life. It was fervent support for Israel - shared by President Bush, high-ranking administration officials and nearly the entire US Congress - that proved crucial in the decision to invade and subdue one of Israel 's greatest regional enemies.
While the unprovoked US invasion of Iraq may have helped Israel , just as those who wanted and planned for the war had hoped, it has been a calamity for America and the world. It has cost tens of thousands of lives and many tens of billions of dollars. Around the world, it has generated unmatched distrust and hostility toward the US . In Arab and Muslim countries, it has fueled intense hatred of the United States , and has brought many new recruits to the ranks of anti-American terrorists.
Americans have already paid a high price for their nation's commitment to Israel . We will pay an ever higher price - not just in dollars or international prestige, but in the lives of young men squandered for the interests of a foreign state - until the Jewish-Zionist hold on US political life is finally broken.
Notes
1. Remarks by Ernest F. Hollings, May 20, 2004. Congressional Record - Senate, May 20, 2004, pages S5921-S5925.
2. The Guardian ( London ), August 20, 2002.
3. R. Dunn, " Sharon Could Have Written Speech," The Times ( London ), June 26, 2002.
4. A. S. Lewin, " Israel 's Security is Key to Security of Rest of World," Jewish Press ( Brooklyn , NY ), May 14, 2003. Rice's interview with the Israeli daily Yediot Aharnonot is quoted.
5. Bush address to AIPAC convention, Washington, DC, May 18, 2004.
6. Text posted at: www.israeleconomy.org/strat1.htm See also: B. Whitaker, "Playing Skittles with Saddam," The Guardian ( London ), Sept. 3, 2002.
7. J. Vest, "The Men From JINSA and CSP," The Nation, Sept. 2, 2002.
8. S. Francis, "Weapons of Mass Deception: Somebody Lied," column of Feb. 6, 2004.
9. Jonathan Steele, " Israel Puts Pressure on US to Strike Iraq ," The Guardian ( London ), August 17, 2002.
10. Robert Novak, " Sharon 's War?," column of Dec. 26, 2002.
11. L. King, "Ex-General Says Israel Inflated Iraqi Threat," Los Angeles Times , Dec. 5, 2003.
12. P. J. Buchanan, "Whose War?," The American Conservative, March 24, 2003.
13. Uri Avnery, "The Night After," CounterPunch, April 10, 2003.
14. F. Nelson, "Anger Over Dalyell's 'Jewish Cabal' Slur," The Scotsman (Edinburgh), May 5, 2003; M. White, "Dalyell Steps Up Attack On Levy," The Guardian ( London ), May 6, 2003. #2018 12/04
------------------------------------------------------------------------
About the author
Mark Weber is director of the Institute for Historical Review. He studied history at the University of Illinois ( Chicago ), the University of Munich , Portland State University and Indiana University (M.A., 1977). For nine years he served as editor of the IHR's Journal of Historical Review.
Thursday, November 17, 2005
Dante's Inferno
| Dante's Inferno | |
| Translation by: John Ciardi with notes | |
| Dante's Inferno, Circle 7 is where the warmongers reside after their life here on earth. Here is where those who commit the violence againt the neighbors, the great war-makers, cruel tyrants, all who shed the blood of their fellowmen. As they wallowed in blood during their lives, so they are immersed in the boiling blood forever, each according to the degree of his guilt, while fierce Centaurs patrol the banks, ready to shoot with thier arrows any sinner who raises himself out of the boiling blood beyond the limits permitted him. | |
Canto XII, Circle 7, Round 1But turn your eyes to the valley; there we shall find (line46The river of boiling blood in which are steepedAll who struck down their fellow men. Oh blind!…”Here they pay for their ferocity. (line 106Here is Alexander. And Dionysius,Who brought long years of grief to Sicily .That brow you see with the hair as black as nightIs Azzolino; and that beside him, the blonde,Is Opizzo da Esti, who had his mortal lightBlown out by his own stepson.” I turned thento speak to the Poet but he raised a hand:“let him be the teacher now, and I will listen.”Further on, the Centaur stopped besideA group of spirits steeped as far as the throatIn the race of boiling blood, and there our guidePointed out a sinner who stood alone:“That one before God's altar pierced a heartstill honored on the Thames .” And he passed on. (120)We came in sight of some who were allowedTo raise the head and all the chest from the river,And I recognized many there. Thus, as we followedAlong the stream of blood, its level fellUntil it cooked no more than the feet of the dammed.And here we crossed the ford to deeper Hell.“Just as you see the boiling stream grow shallowalong this side,” the Centaur said to uswhen we stood on the other bank, “I would have you knowthat on the other, the bottom sinks anewmore and more, until it comes againfull circle to the place where the tyrants stew.It is there that Holy Justice spends its wrathOn Sextus and Pyrrhus through eternity,And on Attila, who was a scourge on earth: (135)And everlastingly milks out the tearsOf Rinier da Corneto and Rinier Pazzo,those two assassins who for many yearsstalked the highways, bloody and abhorred.”And with that he started back across the ford.47. the river with flowing blood This is Phlegethon, the river that circules through the First Round of the Seventh Circle, then sluices through the wood of the suicides (the second round) and the burning sands (third round) to spew over the great Cliff into the Eight CIrcle, and so, eventually, to the bottom of Hell (Cocytus). The river is deepest at the point at which the Poets first approach it and grows shallower along both sides of the circle until it reaches the ford, which is at the opposite point of the First round. THe souls of the dammed are placed in deeper or shallower parts of the river according to the degree of their guilt.55. The Centaurs: The Centaurs were creatures of classical mythology. half-horse, half-men. They were skilled and savage hunters, creatures of passion and violence. Like the Minotaur, they are symbols of the bestial-human, and as such, they are fittingly chosen as the tormentors of these sinners. 65. Chiron: The son of Saturn and of the nymph Philira. He was the wiest and most just of the Centaurs and reputedly was the teacher of Achilles and of other Greek heros to whom he imparted great skill in bearing arms, medicine, astronomy, music, and augury. Dante places him far down in Hell with the others of his kind, but through he draws Chiron's coarseness, he also grants him a kind of majestic understanding. 67. Nessus: Nessus carried travelers across the River Evenus for hire. He was hired to ferry Dejanira, the wife of Hercules, and tried to abduct her, but Hercules killed him with a poisened arrow. While Nessus was dying, he whispered to Dejanira that a shirt stained with his poisoned blood would act as a love charm should Hercules' affections stray. When Hercules fell in love with Iole, Dejanira sent him a shirt stained with the Centaur's blood. The shirt poisoned Hercules and he died in agony. Thus Nessus revenged himself with his own blood. 107. Alexander: Alexander the Great. Dionysius: Dionysius I (died 367B.C.) and his son, Dionysius II (died 343) were tyrants of Sicly. Both were infamous as prototypes of the bloodthirsty and exorbitant ruler. Dante may intend either or both. 110. Azzolino (or Ezzelino): Ezzelino da Romano, Count of Onora (1194-1259). The cruelest of the Ghibelline tyrants. In 1236 Frederick II appointed Ezzelino his vicar in Padua. Ezzelino became especially infamnous for his bloody treatment of the Paduans, whom he slaughtered in great numbers. 111. Opizzo da Esti: Marquis of Ferrara (1264-1293) The account of his life is confused. One must accept Dante's facts as given. 119-120. that one...a heart still hnored on the Thames: The sinner indicated is Guy de Montfort. His father, Simon de Montfort, was a leader of the barons who rebelled against Henry III and was killed at the battle of Evesham (1265) by Prince Edward (later Prince Edward I) In 1271, Guy (then Vicar General of Tuscany) avenged his fathers death by murdering Henery's nepher (who was also named Henry) The crime was openly committed in a church at Viterbo. The mudered Henry's heart was sealed in a casket and sent to London, where it was accorded various honors. 134. Sextus: Probably the younger son of Pompey the Great. His piracy is mentioned in Lucan (Pharsalia, VI, 420,422) Pyrrhus: Pyrrhus, the son of Achilles, was especially bloodthristy at the sack of Troy. Phrrhus, King of Epirus (319-371 BC) waged relentless and bloody war against the Greeks and Romans. Either may be intended. 135. Attila: King of the Huns from 433 to 453. He was called the Scourge of God. 137. Rinier da Corneto, Rinier Pazzo: Both were especially bloodthirsty robber-barons of the thirteenth century. The Inferno, Dante Alighieri, Translated by John Ciardi;1954 | |
Tuesday, November 15, 2005
American torture on Foreign Soil
America kidnapped meBy Khaled El-Masri, KHALED EL-MASRI, a German citizen born in Lebanon, was a car salesman before he was detained in December 2003.
THE U.S. POLICY of "extraordinary rendition" has a human face, and it is mine.I am still recovering from an experience that was completely beyond the pale, outside the bounds of any legal framework and unacceptable in any civilized society. Because I believe in the American system of justice, I sued George Tenet, the former CIA director, last week. What happened to me should never be allowed to happen again.
I was born in Kuwait and raised in Lebanon. In 1985, when Lebanon was being torn apart by civil war, I fled to Germany in search of a better life. There I became a citizen and started my own family. I have five children.On Dec. 31, 2003, I took a bus from Germany to Macedonia. When we arrived, my nightmare began.
Macedonian agents confiscated my passport and detained me for 23 days. I was not allowed to contact anyone, including my wife.At the end of that time, I was forced to record a video saying I had been treated well. Then I was handcuffed, blindfolded and taken to a building where I was severely beaten. My clothes were sliced from my body with a knife or scissors, and my underwear was forcibly removed. I was thrown to the floor, my hands pulled behind me, a boot placed on my back. I was humiliated. Eventually my blindfold was removed, and I saw men dressed in black, wearing black ski masks. I did not know their nationality. I was put in a diaper, a belt with chains to my wrists and ankles, earmuffs, eye pads, a blindfold and a hood.
I was thrown into a plane, and my legs and arms were spread-eagled and secured to the floor. I felt two injections and became nearly unconscious. I felt the plane take off, land and take off. I learned later that I had been taken to Afghanistan.There, I was beaten again and left in a small, dirty, cold concrete cell. I was extremely thirsty, but there was only a bottle of putrid water in the cell. I was refused fresh water.That first night I was taken to an interrogation room where I saw men dressed in the same black clothing and ski masks as before. They stripped and photographed me, and took blood and urine samples. I was returned to the cell, where I would remain in solitary confinement for more than four months.
The following night my interrogations began. They asked me if I knew why I had been detained. I said I did not. They told me that I was now in a country with no laws, and did I understand what that meant? They asked me many times whether I knew the men who were responsible for the Sept. 11 attacks, if I had traveled to Afghanistan to train in camps and if I associated with certain people in my town of Ulm, Germany. I told the truth: that I had no connection to any terrorists, had never been in Afghanistan and had never been involved in any extremism.
I asked repeatedly to meet with a representative of the German government, or a lawyer, or to be brought before a court. Always, my requests were ignored.In desperation, I began a hunger strike. After 27 days without food, I was taken to meet with two Americans the prison director and another man, referred to as "the Boss." I pleaded with them to release me or bring me before a court, but the prison director replied that he could not release me without permission from Washington. He also said that he believed I should not be detained in the prison.
After 37 days without food, I was dragged to the interrogation room, where a feeding tube was forced through my nose into my stomach. I became extremely ill, suffering the worst pain of my life.After three months, I was taken to meet an American who said he had traveled from Washington, D.C., and who promised I would soon be released. I was also visited by a German-speaking man who explained that I would be allowed to return home but warned that I was never to mention what had happened because the Americans were determined to keep the affair a secret.
On May 28, 2004, almost five months after I was first kidnapped, I was blindfolded, handcuffed and chained to an airplane seat. I was told we would land in a country other than Germany, because the Americans did not want to leave traces of their involvement, but that I would eventually get to Germany.After we landed I was driven into the mountains, still blindfolded. My captors removed my handcuffs and blindfold and told me to walk down a dark, deserted path and not to look back. I was afraid I would be shot in the back.I turned a bend and encountered three men who asked why I was illegally in Albania.
They took me to the airport, where I bought a ticket home (my wallet had been returned to me). Only after the plane took off did I believe I was actually going home. I had long hair, a beard and had lost 60 pounds. My wife and children had gone to Lebanon, believing I had abandoned them.
Thankfully, now we are together again in Germany.I still do not know why this happened to me. I have been told that the American secretary of State, Condoleezza Rice, confirmed in a meeting with the German chancellor that my case was a "mistake" and that American officials later denied that she said this. I was not present at this meeting. No one from the American government has ever contacted me or offered me any explanation or apology for the pain they caused me.
Secretary Rice has stated publicly, during a discussion of my case, that "any policy will sometimes result in errors." But that is exactly why extraordinary rendition is so dangerous. As my interrogators made clear when they told me I was being held in a country with no laws, the very purpose of extraordinary rendition is to deny a person the protection of the law. I
begged my captors many times to bring me before a court, where I could explain to a judge that a mistake had been made. Every time, they refused. In this way, a "mistake" that could have been quickly corrected led to several months of cruel treatment and meaningless suffering, for me and my entire family.My captors would not bring me to court, so last week I brought them to court.
Helped by the American Civil Liberties Union, I sued the U.S. government because I believe what happened to me was illegal and should not be done to others. And I believe the American people, when they hear my story, will agree.
THE U.S. POLICY of "extraordinary rendition" has a human face, and it is mine.I am still recovering from an experience that was completely beyond the pale, outside the bounds of any legal framework and unacceptable in any civilized society. Because I believe in the American system of justice, I sued George Tenet, the former CIA director, last week. What happened to me should never be allowed to happen again.
I was born in Kuwait and raised in Lebanon. In 1985, when Lebanon was being torn apart by civil war, I fled to Germany in search of a better life. There I became a citizen and started my own family. I have five children.On Dec. 31, 2003, I took a bus from Germany to Macedonia. When we arrived, my nightmare began.
Macedonian agents confiscated my passport and detained me for 23 days. I was not allowed to contact anyone, including my wife.At the end of that time, I was forced to record a video saying I had been treated well. Then I was handcuffed, blindfolded and taken to a building where I was severely beaten. My clothes were sliced from my body with a knife or scissors, and my underwear was forcibly removed. I was thrown to the floor, my hands pulled behind me, a boot placed on my back. I was humiliated. Eventually my blindfold was removed, and I saw men dressed in black, wearing black ski masks. I did not know their nationality. I was put in a diaper, a belt with chains to my wrists and ankles, earmuffs, eye pads, a blindfold and a hood.
I was thrown into a plane, and my legs and arms were spread-eagled and secured to the floor. I felt two injections and became nearly unconscious. I felt the plane take off, land and take off. I learned later that I had been taken to Afghanistan.There, I was beaten again and left in a small, dirty, cold concrete cell. I was extremely thirsty, but there was only a bottle of putrid water in the cell. I was refused fresh water.That first night I was taken to an interrogation room where I saw men dressed in the same black clothing and ski masks as before. They stripped and photographed me, and took blood and urine samples. I was returned to the cell, where I would remain in solitary confinement for more than four months.
The following night my interrogations began. They asked me if I knew why I had been detained. I said I did not. They told me that I was now in a country with no laws, and did I understand what that meant? They asked me many times whether I knew the men who were responsible for the Sept. 11 attacks, if I had traveled to Afghanistan to train in camps and if I associated with certain people in my town of Ulm, Germany. I told the truth: that I had no connection to any terrorists, had never been in Afghanistan and had never been involved in any extremism.
I asked repeatedly to meet with a representative of the German government, or a lawyer, or to be brought before a court. Always, my requests were ignored.In desperation, I began a hunger strike. After 27 days without food, I was taken to meet with two Americans the prison director and another man, referred to as "the Boss." I pleaded with them to release me or bring me before a court, but the prison director replied that he could not release me without permission from Washington. He also said that he believed I should not be detained in the prison.
After 37 days without food, I was dragged to the interrogation room, where a feeding tube was forced through my nose into my stomach. I became extremely ill, suffering the worst pain of my life.After three months, I was taken to meet an American who said he had traveled from Washington, D.C., and who promised I would soon be released. I was also visited by a German-speaking man who explained that I would be allowed to return home but warned that I was never to mention what had happened because the Americans were determined to keep the affair a secret.
On May 28, 2004, almost five months after I was first kidnapped, I was blindfolded, handcuffed and chained to an airplane seat. I was told we would land in a country other than Germany, because the Americans did not want to leave traces of their involvement, but that I would eventually get to Germany.After we landed I was driven into the mountains, still blindfolded. My captors removed my handcuffs and blindfold and told me to walk down a dark, deserted path and not to look back. I was afraid I would be shot in the back.I turned a bend and encountered three men who asked why I was illegally in Albania.
They took me to the airport, where I bought a ticket home (my wallet had been returned to me). Only after the plane took off did I believe I was actually going home. I had long hair, a beard and had lost 60 pounds. My wife and children had gone to Lebanon, believing I had abandoned them.
Thankfully, now we are together again in Germany.I still do not know why this happened to me. I have been told that the American secretary of State, Condoleezza Rice, confirmed in a meeting with the German chancellor that my case was a "mistake" and that American officials later denied that she said this. I was not present at this meeting. No one from the American government has ever contacted me or offered me any explanation or apology for the pain they caused me.
Secretary Rice has stated publicly, during a discussion of my case, that "any policy will sometimes result in errors." But that is exactly why extraordinary rendition is so dangerous. As my interrogators made clear when they told me I was being held in a country with no laws, the very purpose of extraordinary rendition is to deny a person the protection of the law. I
begged my captors many times to bring me before a court, where I could explain to a judge that a mistake had been made. Every time, they refused. In this way, a "mistake" that could have been quickly corrected led to several months of cruel treatment and meaningless suffering, for me and my entire family.My captors would not bring me to court, so last week I brought them to court.
Helped by the American Civil Liberties Union, I sued the U.S. government because I believe what happened to me was illegal and should not be done to others. And I believe the American people, when they hear my story, will agree.
Thursday, November 10, 2005
The Pozzolatico Winery at the Castle of the local Prince.
There are a few things that the Italians cannot live without in their homes and one of those things is olive oil and wine. The Pozzolatico Castle store, that is owned by the renowned Count (I call him a Prince), is open on Wednesday afternoons and Saturday mornings. Rumor says that the prince owns all the land in Pozzolatico and more! He has his own carpenter, farmers, olive trees, grape vines and store. He produces his own wine and olive oil.
Today, I went to the Castle to buy some of the famed olive oil and red wine. I walked from my humble abode up the road to the castle. The tall tale sign that visitors are welcome to the castle is when the large Iron Gate is open. As I walked through the gate on the road lined with rosemary, olive trees, random flowers and nicely pruned bushes, I felt like the lost girl searching for her prince. As I enter into the garden and down the nicely landscaped road, I see a few cars parked near a large antique wooden garage door. “This must be where the famed wine and olive oil is!” Grungy looking aged men are hanging around the parking lot smoking cigarettes and holding large various designed glass jars to hold the precious wine or olive oil.
Wednesday, November 09, 2005
Michelangelo
I’ve been busy with my university, friends came to visit…so we went to the hill outside of Firenze, Piazza Michelangelo is a square with a beautiful overview of the city. Here are a few pics from there. Many foreigners come to Florence to get married, and they come up to the hill for photographs, on this day there were at least 5 couples getting their photographs taken.
Wednesday, October 26, 2005
Sick of the War?
Someone told me the other day is that everyone is sick of hearing about the Iraqi War.
This ignorance of reality made me really sad. Are we really too busy to be concerned
with our future welfare? Today the headlines read, “US Military Deaths Reach 2,000”.
with our future welfare? Today the headlines read, “US Military Deaths Reach 2,000”.
Bush responded with a warning that many more sacrifices will happen as we fight against “as brutal of an enemy we have ever faced, unconstrained by any notion of common humanity and the rules of warfare.”
As brutal of an enemy we have ever faced? Unconstrained by any notion of common humanity and the rules of warfare? What planet is Bush on? Whose sacrifice? As of 11:56 European time we Americans
have spent a total of $203, 563,908.752 can you say that number? The rate is at $17,000 per minute, while our health system crashes, homelessness is on the rise in every city in American, not only men, but families without a roof over their heads. According to the latest report from the Bureau of Statistics, 12.4% of Americans live in poverty, a 0.3% increase in three years. 15.5% of the Americans are uninsured for medical purposes that are a 0.2% increase in the past three years.
This means that 36,335,418 Americans are in poverty over the age of 16 and 45,417,723 Americans are uninsured. The 2004 population estimate is 283,027,571.
In the meantime, our men are “sacrificing” their lives and we can't even put a definition as to why. For the cause of humanity and war crimes, and to trample down a man who murdered his own people in the name of democracy? Who is committing the war crimes here? The Iraqi Body Count website says that as of today a minimum of 26,690 and a maximum of 30,051 Iraqi civilians have been killed. Sanitation and health concerns run rampant in Iraq due to the war. Jobs are lost and poverty in Iraq in increasing. But this is not only occurring in Iraq , but also in America .
We all know that there were not any weapons of mass destruction and we all know about the oil scandals we all know about the torture crimes and the attempt to hide the truth. Who is going to benefit from this are certain corporations in America and the Shei who are most likely inherit a new country.
http://icasualties.org/oif/ Iraq collation casualty count
http://www.antiwar.com/ lists the vigils occurring around the county
Creating
I have not submitted my photo of the day for a few days. I was side tracked with emotionally created humm by my ex. (handling your divorce) Sad huh? I surely don’t understand why people just don’t let things be, why they feel that they need to be telling you what you should be doing with your life. Are they me? Are they you?
Isn’t one really free when they can live without the societal limits that are instilled upon our brains? In order to be “successful” (your brain has a bent - not a dent)must we really own our own home with the picket white fence and drive a Mercedes?
Freedom (emotional freedom) is creating the ability to live in a peaceful environment of encouragement in a circle of great friends, they are like diamonds.
Freedom is the ability to create in your own life what it is you do based on who you really are, not who they think that you should be.
Freedom is creating the ability to create. Leonardo De Vinci was a creator and in his creations he presented gifts and knowledge to the entire world that we still use today.
Freedom is creating the ability to create, that is: creating your own design (emotional design) of your own life, your breathe and your soul based on who you really are. (Nature and the Human Soul: Cultivating Wholeness and community in a fragmented world)
Today is my birthday.
Isn’t one really free when they can live without the societal limits that are instilled upon our brains? In order to be “successful” (your brain has a bent - not a dent)must we really own our own home with the picket white fence and drive a Mercedes?
Freedom (emotional freedom) is creating the ability to live in a peaceful environment of encouragement in a circle of great friends, they are like diamonds.
Freedom is the ability to create in your own life what it is you do based on who you really are, not who they think that you should be.
Freedom is creating the ability to create. Leonardo De Vinci was a creator and in his creations he presented gifts and knowledge to the entire world that we still use today.
Freedom is creating the ability to create, that is: creating your own design (emotional design) of your own life, your breathe and your soul based on who you really are. (Nature and the Human Soul: Cultivating Wholeness and community in a fragmented world)
Today is my birthday.
Friday, October 21, 2005
Denunciation
Denunciation
In The Name of God The Merciful , The Compassionate
Once more The American Occupation Forces are confirming their Violation of all Human Rights , International Laws & United Nations Charter . The Occupation Forces Conducted a Strike on the Districts of Albou-Fahd , Albou-Farraj & Al-Soufeya in Ramadi .
The Victims of the US Areial Bombings were 25 Child , it is to be Mentioned that the Reported Casualties are to be 70 Dead & more than a 100 Wounded .
We are Appealing all Establishments & Humanitarian Organizations & on Top of Them The UN , To Stop this Bloodshed & The Collective Extermination Operations Committed against the Iraqi People .We are Crying out for & Urging the Human Conscience to Save the Iraqi Man from all These Crimes Committed against him . The War Crimes against Humanity which are Rejected by all International Laws & Traditions.
Ezz-Al-Iraq Caring Establishment
For Motherhood , Childhood & Handicapeds
General Headquarters
Baghdad - Iraq
17 October 2005
In The Name of God The Merciful , The Compassionate
Once more The American Occupation Forces are confirming their Violation of all Human Rights , International Laws & United Nations Charter . The Occupation Forces Conducted a Strike on the Districts of Albou-Fahd , Albou-Farraj & Al-Soufeya in Ramadi .
The Victims of the US Areial Bombings were 25 Child , it is to be Mentioned that the Reported Casualties are to be 70 Dead & more than a 100 Wounded .
We are Appealing all Establishments & Humanitarian Organizations & on Top of Them The UN , To Stop this Bloodshed & The Collective Extermination Operations Committed against the Iraqi People .We are Crying out for & Urging the Human Conscience to Save the Iraqi Man from all These Crimes Committed against him . The War Crimes against Humanity which are Rejected by all International Laws & Traditions.
Ezz-Al-Iraq Caring Establishment
For Motherhood , Childhood & Handicapeds
General Headquarters
Baghdad - Iraq
17 October 2005
THE AMERICAN PLANS TO EXHAUST IRAQ AND TO STEAL ITS RESOURCES: FACTS AND FIGURES
This is one of the best written articles I have read. This article is representing the Iraqi voice from someone who knows. Please read the article on the link below, it was too long for me to post it here.
Dear Friends ,
This is a highly important article about Iraq written by one of the Intellectual of this country . Every one must read it , to know what is really going on there.you'll find it on the following link.
Please Read it , then send it to the whole world . Help us spread it every where.
Thank you ,
Best Regards ,
http://www.axisoflogic.com/artman/publish/article_19358.shtml
Dear Friends ,
This is a highly important article about Iraq written by one of the Intellectual of this country . Every one must read it , to know what is really going on there.you'll find it on the following link.
Please Read it , then send it to the whole world . Help us spread it every where.
Thank you ,
Best Regards ,
http://www.axisoflogic.com/artman/publish/article_19358.shtml
The Olive Tree
The olive tree has is a symbol of freedom and peace. Its roots go deep into the ground and its branches reach up towards the sky. You have to prune the tree every year for it to produce its fruit. You can take a branch, and grow a new tree and plant a mountain of olive trees.
The tree is life giving.
It produces oil for cooking, your skin, for fire, and for food.
The olive tree dates back to the Egyptian time period, they used it for everything.
People have been killed over olives.
Families have broken up over olives.
When the killing stops
and the families come back together
then the olive tree will represent the peace that is so desires.
Book link: The Olive Tree of Civilization, by John Train:
The ancients knew these virtues and olive oil became a key to their religious and political ceremonies, from the temples of Ra in Egypt where lamps burned olive oil, to the temple of Soloman, where kings were anointed with oil based ointments. Christ was offered a sip of oil on the cross; Hanukah is, at its origin...
The tree is life giving.
It produces oil for cooking, your skin, for fire, and for food.
The olive tree dates back to the Egyptian time period, they used it for everything.
People have been killed over olives.
Families have broken up over olives.
When the killing stops
and the families come back together
then the olive tree will represent the peace that is so desires.
Book link: The Olive Tree of Civilization, by John Train:
The ancients knew these virtues and olive oil became a key to their religious and political ceremonies, from the temples of Ra in Egypt where lamps burned olive oil, to the temple of Soloman, where kings were anointed with oil based ointments. Christ was offered a sip of oil on the cross; Hanukah is, at its origin...
Denunciation
Denunciation
In The Name of God The Merciful , The Compassionate
Once more The American Occupation Forces are confirming their Violation of all Human Rights , International Laws & United Nations Charter . The Occupation Forces Conducted a Strike on the Districts of Albou-Fahd , Albou-Farraj & Al-Soufeya in Ramadi .
The Victims of the US Areial Bombings were 25 Child , it is to be Mentioned that the Reported Casualties are to be 70 Dead & more than a 100 Wounded .
We are Appealing all Establishments & Humanitarian Organizations & on Top of Them The UN , To Stop this Bloodshed & The Collective Extermination Operations Committed against the Iraqi People .We are Crying out for & Urging the Human Conscience to Save the Iraqi Man from all These Crimes Committed against him . The War Crimes against Humanity which are Rejected by all International Laws & Traditions.
Ezz-Al-Iraq Caring Establishment
For Motherhood , Childhood & Handicapeds
General Headquarters
Baghdad - Iraq
17 October 2005
In The Name of God The Merciful , The Compassionate
Once more The American Occupation Forces are confirming their Violation of all Human Rights , International Laws & United Nations Charter . The Occupation Forces Conducted a Strike on the Districts of Albou-Fahd , Albou-Farraj & Al-Soufeya in Ramadi .
The Victims of the US Areial Bombings were 25 Child , it is to be Mentioned that the Reported Casualties are to be 70 Dead & more than a 100 Wounded .
We are Appealing all Establishments & Humanitarian Organizations & on Top of Them The UN , To Stop this Bloodshed & The Collective Extermination Operations Committed against the Iraqi People .We are Crying out for & Urging the Human Conscience to Save the Iraqi Man from all These Crimes Committed against him . The War Crimes against Humanity which are Rejected by all International Laws & Traditions.
Ezz-Al-Iraq Caring Establishment
For Motherhood , Childhood & Handicapeds
General Headquarters
Baghdad - Iraq
17 October 2005
Bob Dylan Masters of War 1963
I am in Italy and last night I was invited over to some friends house for dinner. After dinner they proceeded to put on some music. The guy had an amazing collection! Here he is at 30 years old with Every single Bob Dylan, Donavan, Johnny Cash and more CD's. He had over 1000 CD's mostly 60's American Music.
This is music that I am not used to hearing, that I really know nothing about and the guys started talking about this and that, where the song was written, when and with whom. It took me to an American evening in the 60's while I was sitting in a living room in Italy .
This is a time in our history, where people stood up, I mean really stood up against WAR. What we did in America in the 60's took an effect on the world. The Italians know the songs, and they remember. Now, they wonder WHY aren't we doing it again?
I listened to the lyrics, all of love, peace and no war. I started to wonder on the same thing. I wonder what has happened to our country and our people. Our expenses greatly surpass our income to the point that we cannot take care of ourselves. Our children are without shelter and food, families are sleeping in the streets without the hope of finding a job because corporate America is taking the work to other countries and paying slave labor to cut down on expenses.
How long will we sit down and remain silent? What happened to our fighting spirit?s
I learned more about our past last night, than I have when I lived there! Here is a lyric from a Bob Dylan Song: Masters of
War 1963
Come you masters of war You that build all the guns You that build the death planes You that build the big bombs You that hide behind walls You that hide behind desks I just want you to know I can see through your masks You that never done nothin' But build to destroy You play with my world Like it's your little toy You put a gun in my hand And you hide from my eyes And you turn and run farther When the fast bullets fly Like Judas of old You lie and deceive A world war can be won You want me to believe But I see through your eyes And I see through your brain Like I see through the water That runs down my drain You fasten the triggers For the others to fire Then you set back and watch When the death count gets higher You hide in your mansion As young people's blood Flows out of their bodies And is buried in the mud You've thrown the worst fear That can ever be hurled Fear to bring children Into the world For threatening my baby Unborn and unnamed You ain't worth the blood That runs in your veins How much do I know To talk out of turn You might say that I'm young You might say I'm unlearned But there's one thing I know Though I'm younger than you Even Jesus would never Forgive what you do Let me ask you one question Is your money that good Will it buy you forgiveness Do you think that it could I think you will find When your death takes its toll All the money you made Will never buy back your soul And I hope that you die And your death'll come soon I will follow your casket In the pale afternoon And I'll watch while you're lowered Down to your deathbed And I'll stand o'er your grave 'Til I'm sure that you're dead
The 1960's and Now: Bob Dylan: The Masters of War
I am in Italy and last night I was invited over to some friends house for dinner. After dinner they proceeded to put on some music. The guy had an amazing collection! Here he is at 30 years old with Every single Bob Dylan, Donavan, Johnny Cash and more CD’s. He had over 1000 CD’s mostly 60’s American Music.
This is music that I am not used to hearing, that I really know nothing about and the guys started talking about this and that, where the song was written, when and with whom. It took me to an American evening in the 60’s while I was sitting in a living room in Italy.
This is a time in our history, where people stood up, I mean really stood up against WAR. What we did in America in the 60’s took an effect on the world. The Italians know the songs, and they remember. Now, they wonder WHY aren’t we doing it again?
I listened to the lyrics, all of love, peace and no war. I started to wonder on the same thing. I wonder what has happened to our country and our people. Our expenses greatly surpass our income to the point that we cannot take care of ourselves. Our children are without shelter and food, families are sleeping in the streets without the hope of finding a job because corporate America is taking the work to other countries and paying slave labor to cut down on expenses.
How long will we sit down and remain silent? What happened to our fighting spirit?s
I learned more about our past last night, than I have when I lived there! Here is a lyric from a Bob Dylan Song: Masters of War 1963
Come you masters of warYou that build all the guns
You that build the death planes
You that build the big bombs
You that hide behind walls
You that hide behind desks
I just want you to knowI can see through your masks
You that never done nothin'
But build to destroy
You play with my worldLike it's your little toy
You put a gun in my hand
And you hide from my eyes
And you turn and run farther
When the fast bullets fly Like Judas of oldY
ou lie and deceive
A world war can be won
You want me to believe
But I see through your eyes
And I see through your brain
Like I see through the water
That runs down my drain
You fasten the triggers
For the others to fire
Then you set back and watch
When the death count gets higher
You hide in your mansion
As young people's bloodFlows out of their bodies
And is buried in the mud
You've thrown the worst fear
That can ever be hurled
Fear to bring childrenInto the world
For threatening my babyUnborn and unnamed
You ain't worth the blood
That runs in your veins
How much do I knowTo talk out of turn
You might say that I'm young
You might say I'm unlearned
But there's one thing I know
Though I'm younger than you
Even Jesus would never
Forgive what you do
Let me ask you one question
Is your money that good
Will it buy you forgiveness
Do you think that it could
I think you will find
When your death takes its toll
All the money you made
Will never buy back your soul
And I hope that you die
And your death'll come soon
I will follow your casket
In the pale afternoon
And I'll watch while you're lowered
Down to your deathbed
And I'll stand o'er your grave
'Til I'm sure that you're dead
This is music that I am not used to hearing, that I really know nothing about and the guys started talking about this and that, where the song was written, when and with whom. It took me to an American evening in the 60’s while I was sitting in a living room in Italy.
This is a time in our history, where people stood up, I mean really stood up against WAR. What we did in America in the 60’s took an effect on the world. The Italians know the songs, and they remember. Now, they wonder WHY aren’t we doing it again?
I listened to the lyrics, all of love, peace and no war. I started to wonder on the same thing. I wonder what has happened to our country and our people. Our expenses greatly surpass our income to the point that we cannot take care of ourselves. Our children are without shelter and food, families are sleeping in the streets without the hope of finding a job because corporate America is taking the work to other countries and paying slave labor to cut down on expenses.
How long will we sit down and remain silent? What happened to our fighting spirit?s
I learned more about our past last night, than I have when I lived there! Here is a lyric from a Bob Dylan Song: Masters of War 1963
Come you masters of warYou that build all the guns
You that build the death planes
You that build the big bombs
You that hide behind walls
You that hide behind desks
I just want you to knowI can see through your masks
You that never done nothin'
But build to destroy
You play with my worldLike it's your little toy
You put a gun in my hand
And you hide from my eyes
And you turn and run farther
When the fast bullets fly Like Judas of oldY
ou lie and deceive
A world war can be won
You want me to believe
But I see through your eyes
And I see through your brain
Like I see through the water
That runs down my drain
You fasten the triggers
For the others to fire
Then you set back and watch
When the death count gets higher
You hide in your mansion
As young people's bloodFlows out of their bodies
And is buried in the mud
You've thrown the worst fear
That can ever be hurled
Fear to bring childrenInto the world
For threatening my babyUnborn and unnamed
You ain't worth the blood
That runs in your veins
How much do I knowTo talk out of turn
You might say that I'm young
You might say I'm unlearned
But there's one thing I know
Though I'm younger than you
Even Jesus would never
Forgive what you do
Let me ask you one question
Is your money that good
Will it buy you forgiveness
Do you think that it could
I think you will find
When your death takes its toll
All the money you made
Will never buy back your soul
And I hope that you die
And your death'll come soon
I will follow your casket
In the pale afternoon
And I'll watch while you're lowered
Down to your deathbed
And I'll stand o'er your grave
'Til I'm sure that you're dead
Thursday, October 20, 2005
comments wanted
Hi,
I would like your comments and input for my new site! What I want to know...is what is it that you want to know?
Do you want behind the scene stories from the ground?
one place where you can get your questions answered through links?
I will not have the time to update news, other sites do that., but I can link to them.
Your comments are welcome!
I would like your comments and input for my new site! What I want to know...is what is it that you want to know?
Do you want behind the scene stories from the ground?
one place where you can get your questions answered through links?
I will not have the time to update news, other sites do that., but I can link to them.
Your comments are welcome!
The Search for an Identity
In the search for an identity my cousin sent me this:
If suddenly and without warning you had nothing to worry about, do you know what the world would began to look like?
Exactly the same as it does now.
If suddenly you had absolutely nothing to be afraid of do you know what you’d begin to look like right now?
Yeah, “hot” as ever.
If suddenly, you had absolutely no expectations you had to live up to and absolutely no one to disappoint, do you know how free you would suddenly become?
The only thing that would really change are your thoughts-
And you don’t need circumstances and other people to help you with that do you?
If suddenly and without warning you had nothing to worry about, do you know what the world would began to look like?
Exactly the same as it does now.
If suddenly you had absolutely nothing to be afraid of do you know what you’d begin to look like right now?
Yeah, “hot” as ever.
If suddenly, you had absolutely no expectations you had to live up to and absolutely no one to disappoint, do you know how free you would suddenly become?
The only thing that would really change are your thoughts-
And you don’t need circumstances and other people to help you with that do you?
Wednesday, October 19, 2005
Tuesday, October 18, 2005
A welder in Pozzolatico, Italy
A welder. While I was taking my walk to move my body from the computer I saw two human beings which is
unusual in the country in the middle of the day. I asked them if I could take a photograph. They were happy
to accomodate my entertainment needs.
unusual in the country in the middle of the day. I asked them if I could take a photograph. They were happy
to accomodate my entertainment needs.
There is a beautiful house that the man on the left is remodeling. It overlooks the Tuscan Hills and the lights
of Florence. He is tiling the floors, new bathrooms and a new kitchen. To live in a home like this is only
a dream.
of Florence. He is tiling the floors, new bathrooms and a new kitchen. To live in a home like this is only
a dream.
Monday, October 17, 2005
Tuscan Road
This is a photograph of the road I live off of in the rolling hills near Florence, Italy. We have
Olive trees and grape vines, farmers and one small coffee bar. The local market closed a week
ago and the locals including myself are upset because we have to drive to the next town to buy
milk.
ago and the locals including myself are upset because we have to drive to the next town to buy
milk.
The Prince and the Castle
There are a few things that the Italians cannot live without in their homes and one of those things is olive oil and wine. The Pozzolatico Castle store, that is owned by the renowned Count (I call him a Prince), is open on Wednesday afternoons and Saturday mornings. Rumor says that the prince owns all the land in Pozzolatico and more! He has his own carpenter, farmers, olive trees, grape vines and store. He produces his own wine and olive oil.
Today, I went to the Castle to buy some of the famed olive oil and red wine. I walked from my humble abode up the road to the castle. The tall tale sign that visitors are welcome to the castle is when the large Iron Gate is open. As I walked through the gate on the road lined with rosemary, olive trees, random flowers and nicely pruned bushes, I felt like the lost girl searching for her prince. I asked myself, “Where is my prince? Could he be here?” What a dream it is for an older single, divorced woman to meet her true prince, who lives truly in a castle surrounded with tall stoned walls and surrounded by miles and miles of land.
As I enter into the garden and down the nicely landscaped road, I see a few cars parked near a large antique wooden garage door. “This must be where the famed wine and olive oil is!” Grungy looking aged men are hanging around the parking lot smoking cigarettes and holding large various designed glass jars to hold the precious wine or olive oil.
Once inside there are a variety of garden fresh vegetables to choose from and a desk with a calculator and papers rummaged on top. There is another red antique wooden door that is the entry way to the winery. The smell inside is that of the night after a drinking binge in a sorority house.
I asked to taste the olive oil, because I heard that many times they will try to sell you “last years supply” before giving you the new. I tasted the old and I thought, “Ummm good!” and then tasted the new, and thought, “It was picked too early and the taste is somewhat bitter.” I’ll take the old, please!
The wine was not a problem, I had already brought with me a few empty bottles and wholah I have now the red wine and olive oil. The salesman was not the prince. I thought to myself, dang. I wanted to see the famed prince! He was a grungy old man, missing two front teeth trying to keep all the customers happy. The prince was no where to be found. “Oh well, maybe next time…??”
Today, I went to the Castle to buy some of the famed olive oil and red wine. I walked from my humble abode up the road to the castle. The tall tale sign that visitors are welcome to the castle is when the large Iron Gate is open. As I walked through the gate on the road lined with rosemary, olive trees, random flowers and nicely pruned bushes, I felt like the lost girl searching for her prince. I asked myself, “Where is my prince? Could he be here?” What a dream it is for an older single, divorced woman to meet her true prince, who lives truly in a castle surrounded with tall stoned walls and surrounded by miles and miles of land.
As I enter into the garden and down the nicely landscaped road, I see a few cars parked near a large antique wooden garage door. “This must be where the famed wine and olive oil is!” Grungy looking aged men are hanging around the parking lot smoking cigarettes and holding large various designed glass jars to hold the precious wine or olive oil.
Once inside there are a variety of garden fresh vegetables to choose from and a desk with a calculator and papers rummaged on top. There is another red antique wooden door that is the entry way to the winery. The smell inside is that of the night after a drinking binge in a sorority house.
I asked to taste the olive oil, because I heard that many times they will try to sell you “last years supply” before giving you the new. I tasted the old and I thought, “Ummm good!” and then tasted the new, and thought, “It was picked too early and the taste is somewhat bitter.” I’ll take the old, please!
The wine was not a problem, I had already brought with me a few empty bottles and wholah I have now the red wine and olive oil. The salesman was not the prince. I thought to myself, dang. I wanted to see the famed prince! He was a grungy old man, missing two front teeth trying to keep all the customers happy. The prince was no where to be found. “Oh well, maybe next time…??”
Friday, October 14, 2005
Welder
welder and watcher
Today I have been working hard on my book and didn't move from the chair for about 5 hours. My butt was getting sore so I decided to grab my camera for my photo of the day shot.
Normally, when I venture out of my front door, I do not see another soul. This is the life in the country. Today I saw a welder and asked him if I could take a photograph. We talked for about 5 minutes. I believe that this will be the highlight of my conversations for the day.
Thursday, October 13, 2005
Anti-War Action News
The Fight Against Fake News Continues
Like much news that's damaging to the Bush administration, the report came out on a Friday. Since then, it's gotten little media attention -- just 41 mentions in U.S. newspapers and wire stories, according to a news database search on October 11. That's remarkably sparse coverage for a story showing that the U.S. government has been engaged in illegal propaganda aimed at its own citizens. (http://mediachannel.org/blog/node/1419)
REGIONAL & BRISTOL ST0P-THE-WAR NEWS :
October 2005[Covering South & South West, Wales & West Midlands]
You don't need to be affiliated to us to be publicised by us. This monthsnewsletter contains large numbers of activities.
Try to get involved in atleast some of them. Send regional events to: sub@sequence.plus.com
The George Galloway v Peter Hitchens, & the George Galloway v USSenate debates are downloadable from the Bro Emlyn Peace & JusticeGroup website: http://www.newcastle-emlyn.com/stopwar/
DOWNLOAD: A printer friendly version of this newsletter is also available.Please print out copies & give or sell them to people who don't have email.Visit: http://www.bristol.indymedia.org/newswire.php?story_id=24268Or: http://www.indymedia.org.uk/en/2005/09/324749.html
Women rights magazine editor detained
Pajhwok 10/02/2005 By Ahmad Khalid Mowahid
KABUL - Police have detained the chief editor of Haqooq-i-Zan (women rights) magazine, a worker of the publication claimed on Sunday. Ali Mohaqiq, the chief editor who went missing a day earlier, was in police custody, Mohammad informed Pajhwok Afghan News. "After hectic efforts, I found Mohaqiq at the Kabul police headquarters detention centre." The worker said police were yet to say why Mohaqiq had been held. But Zmarai Amiri, a Kabul court head, said the editor had been incarcerated for publishing anti-Islam articles. He stopped short of disclosing the contents of the articles. He argued the publication of such pieces as ridiculed the religion was prohibited under the relevant Afghan press law. The court chief said they were discussing the issue with a commission tasked with monitoring the media. Mohaqiq refused to name editorial board members responsible for publishing the 'anti-Islam' pieces, he said. Mohammad pointed out a cleric in Dasht-e-Barchi on the outskirts of Kabul, had complained to police about the magazine some three months back. The Imam, who claimed the articles published by the magazine were against Islamic teachings, had also asked people to avoid reading it.
Like much news that's damaging to the Bush administration, the report came out on a Friday. Since then, it's gotten little media attention -- just 41 mentions in U.S. newspapers and wire stories, according to a news database search on October 11. That's remarkably sparse coverage for a story showing that the U.S. government has been engaged in illegal propaganda aimed at its own citizens. (http://mediachannel.org/blog/node/1419)
REGIONAL & BRISTOL ST0P-THE-WAR NEWS :
October 2005[Covering South & South West, Wales & West Midlands]
You don't need to be affiliated to us to be publicised by us. This monthsnewsletter contains large numbers of activities.
Try to get involved in atleast some of them. Send regional events to: sub@sequence.plus.com
The George Galloway v Peter Hitchens, & the George Galloway v USSenate debates are downloadable from the Bro Emlyn Peace & JusticeGroup website: http://www.newcastle-emlyn.com/stopwar/
DOWNLOAD: A printer friendly version of this newsletter is also available.Please print out copies & give or sell them to people who don't have email.Visit: http://www.bristol.indymedia.org/newswire.php?story_id=24268Or: http://www.indymedia.org.uk/en/2005/09/324749.html
Women rights magazine editor detained
Pajhwok 10/02/2005 By Ahmad Khalid Mowahid
KABUL - Police have detained the chief editor of Haqooq-i-Zan (women rights) magazine, a worker of the publication claimed on Sunday. Ali Mohaqiq, the chief editor who went missing a day earlier, was in police custody, Mohammad informed Pajhwok Afghan News. "After hectic efforts, I found Mohaqiq at the Kabul police headquarters detention centre." The worker said police were yet to say why Mohaqiq had been held. But Zmarai Amiri, a Kabul court head, said the editor had been incarcerated for publishing anti-Islam articles. He stopped short of disclosing the contents of the articles. He argued the publication of such pieces as ridiculed the religion was prohibited under the relevant Afghan press law. The court chief said they were discussing the issue with a commission tasked with monitoring the media. Mohaqiq refused to name editorial board members responsible for publishing the 'anti-Islam' pieces, he said. Mohammad pointed out a cleric in Dasht-e-Barchi on the outskirts of Kabul, had complained to police about the magazine some three months back. The Imam, who claimed the articles published by the magazine were against Islamic teachings, had also asked people to avoid reading it.
My Third Career
This photograph is a road on which I live, nestled in the hills of Tuscany, Italy.
Statistics show that most people change their careers at least two or three time. I am on my third. The last war I photographed was the war in Iraq and the Intifada in the West Bank of Israel. For 5 years I photographed poverty, suicide bombings, tears and pain. I do not know how a person can live under such conditions for such a long time, without the hope of it ever going away. I had to leave and live in a “normal” place to re-energize my spirit. I chose Italy. I have always thought that the language was beautiful and the men “hot”.
I live in Tuscany, just outside of Florence. I live among rolling hills of olive trees and grape vines. I live in the country where it is quiet and one can only hear the birds chirp among each other. There is a small coffee bar about ¼ km away from my home where the locals gather in the early evenings to catch up on the latest of the local gossip. During my daily walk to the coffee bar, in the attempt to see some civilization, I see the farmers (the Italians call them Peasants) tilling the land and picking their fruit of their labor.
Their skin is tight and wrinkled due to the high exposure from the sun. Their hands are like leather and their smiles are bright. The men dress in baggy pants and the women in dresses that come below their knees. Most of the time, the clothes look well warn and are soiled from the Tuscan mud. Most of the women wear an apron over their dress; this is because they spend much of their time in the kitchen or picking vegetables from the garden.
When one goes into town, that is Florence, everyone dresses up for the occasion. The older folks wear clean and crisp clothes and the younger look like they just came from a fashion show. I call Florence the “Small American college town”. I heard that there are 68 universities in Florence. The students come from America to learn of art, history and the language for a semester or a year. If you sit at a coffee bar and watch the people going by you can say that the students dominate the city and the locals keep a low profile.
Those who live in Florence make their living either from Tourism or the students. The economy is not so good, as anywhere else in the world at the moment. I am here, to find my new path and direction. My dream is to write books and photograph culture worldwide. I want to photograph and compile the people and their lives, their faces and their special moments. This is my dream and I spend this time trying to make it happen. In the meantime, I am trying to figure out where I belong in this world, and what am I supposed to do to make a viable living.
My next post will give some background.
Statistics show that most people change their careers at least two or three time. I am on my third. The last war I photographed was the war in Iraq and the Intifada in the West Bank of Israel. For 5 years I photographed poverty, suicide bombings, tears and pain. I do not know how a person can live under such conditions for such a long time, without the hope of it ever going away. I had to leave and live in a “normal” place to re-energize my spirit. I chose Italy. I have always thought that the language was beautiful and the men “hot”.
I live in Tuscany, just outside of Florence. I live among rolling hills of olive trees and grape vines. I live in the country where it is quiet and one can only hear the birds chirp among each other. There is a small coffee bar about ¼ km away from my home where the locals gather in the early evenings to catch up on the latest of the local gossip. During my daily walk to the coffee bar, in the attempt to see some civilization, I see the farmers (the Italians call them Peasants) tilling the land and picking their fruit of their labor.
Their skin is tight and wrinkled due to the high exposure from the sun. Their hands are like leather and their smiles are bright. The men dress in baggy pants and the women in dresses that come below their knees. Most of the time, the clothes look well warn and are soiled from the Tuscan mud. Most of the women wear an apron over their dress; this is because they spend much of their time in the kitchen or picking vegetables from the garden.
When one goes into town, that is Florence, everyone dresses up for the occasion. The older folks wear clean and crisp clothes and the younger look like they just came from a fashion show. I call Florence the “Small American college town”. I heard that there are 68 universities in Florence. The students come from America to learn of art, history and the language for a semester or a year. If you sit at a coffee bar and watch the people going by you can say that the students dominate the city and the locals keep a low profile.
Those who live in Florence make their living either from Tourism or the students. The economy is not so good, as anywhere else in the world at the moment. I am here, to find my new path and direction. My dream is to write books and photograph culture worldwide. I want to photograph and compile the people and their lives, their faces and their special moments. This is my dream and I spend this time trying to make it happen. In the meantime, I am trying to figure out where I belong in this world, and what am I supposed to do to make a viable living.
My next post will give some background.
Wednesday, October 12, 2005
Tuesday, October 11, 2005
Bush Says that he "Expects" Violence in Iraq
“I expect violence because there is a group of terrorist and killers who want to try to stop the advance of democracy in Iraq.” he said http://news.yahoo.com/s/nm/20051011/us_nm/iraq_bush_dc
My comment must be said here:
Like there has not been any violence? The latest death toll for Iraqi civilians is: 25457 (www.iraqbodycount.net) (October 11, 2005); The latest Soldier count is: 2,154; (http://icasualties.org/oif/) 72 journalists and media assistants have been killed since March 2003. (http://www.rsf.org/rubrique.php3?id_rubrique=20) And there has not been any violence?
Just read the article below for one small fine example of life in Iraq:
Insurgents kill more than 40 Iraqi’s.
BAGHDAD, Iraq - Insurgents determined to wreck Iraq's constitutional referendum killed more than 40 people and wounded dozens in a series of attacks Tuesday, including a suicide car bomb that ripped apart a crowded market in a town near the Syrian border, police said. U.S. and Iraqi officials have repeatedly warned that the insurgents would step up their attacks to undermine Saturday's referendum, a crucial step in Iraq's democratic transition. http://news.yahoo.com/fc/World/Iraq
Another Note:
It is horrible what has happened in Pakistan, the latest is the toll is up to 35,000. I was reading that 60% of the Pakistanis age is under 15. The age dependency ratio is 88.34% meaning the population under 15 and over 64. In Islamabad 68.42%. Sindh 83.58%. (http://www.statpak.gov.pk/depts/pco/statistics/other_tables/pop_by_age_group.pdf) read the update below on the latest in Pakistan.
Earthquake toll jumps to an estimated 35,000
MUZAFFARABAD, Pakistan - Heavy rain and hail forced the cancellation of some relief flights to earthquake-stricken regions Tuesday and survivors scuffled over the badly needed food — the first international aid to make it overland to this devastated city. Officials estimated that the death toll would surpass 35,000.http://news.yahoo.com/fc/World/South_Asia_Earthquake
My Comment:
I was wondering what the Christian evangelical reaction was of the latest earthquake news and I found this quote from the bible:
“not yet the end. "For nation will rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom, and in various places there will be famines, and pestilence's and earthquakes. "But all these things are merely the beginning of birth pangs." Matthew 24:3-8
OneWorldNet published an article titled, “Did God Send Katrina as judgment for Gaza?” (http://www.worldnetdaily.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=46178) The Christian evangelicals feel that all the signs of the end times are upon us, with the famines, earthquakes, diseases, and other natural disasters. One site provides the reader with a ton of information and links to the latest end time news encouraging the reader to “Not Be Left Behind”. (http://www.prophecyupdate.com/)
We try to find reasons to justify horrible disasters such as Katrina and the earthquake in Pakistan. But I feel that we may not know the “real” reasons but that these natural disasters are a part of the cycle of natural events, a way to keep the population under control. Sounds hard, but there was an ice age. The sun is a variable star, we’ve had numerous weather cycles, the mini ice age was 700 years ago that killed off the Vikings.
My comment must be said here:
Like there has not been any violence? The latest death toll for Iraqi civilians is: 25457 (www.iraqbodycount.net) (October 11, 2005); The latest Soldier count is: 2,154; (http://icasualties.org/oif/) 72 journalists and media assistants have been killed since March 2003. (http://www.rsf.org/rubrique.php3?id_rubrique=20) And there has not been any violence?
Just read the article below for one small fine example of life in Iraq:
Insurgents kill more than 40 Iraqi’s.
BAGHDAD, Iraq - Insurgents determined to wreck Iraq's constitutional referendum killed more than 40 people and wounded dozens in a series of attacks Tuesday, including a suicide car bomb that ripped apart a crowded market in a town near the Syrian border, police said. U.S. and Iraqi officials have repeatedly warned that the insurgents would step up their attacks to undermine Saturday's referendum, a crucial step in Iraq's democratic transition. http://news.yahoo.com/fc/World/Iraq
Another Note:
It is horrible what has happened in Pakistan, the latest is the toll is up to 35,000. I was reading that 60% of the Pakistanis age is under 15. The age dependency ratio is 88.34% meaning the population under 15 and over 64. In Islamabad 68.42%. Sindh 83.58%. (http://www.statpak.gov.pk/depts/pco/statistics/other_tables/pop_by_age_group.pdf) read the update below on the latest in Pakistan.
Earthquake toll jumps to an estimated 35,000
MUZAFFARABAD, Pakistan - Heavy rain and hail forced the cancellation of some relief flights to earthquake-stricken regions Tuesday and survivors scuffled over the badly needed food — the first international aid to make it overland to this devastated city. Officials estimated that the death toll would surpass 35,000.http://news.yahoo.com/fc/World/South_Asia_Earthquake
My Comment:
I was wondering what the Christian evangelical reaction was of the latest earthquake news and I found this quote from the bible:
“not yet the end. "For nation will rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom, and in various places there will be famines, and pestilence's and earthquakes. "But all these things are merely the beginning of birth pangs." Matthew 24:3-8
OneWorldNet published an article titled, “Did God Send Katrina as judgment for Gaza?” (http://www.worldnetdaily.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=46178) The Christian evangelicals feel that all the signs of the end times are upon us, with the famines, earthquakes, diseases, and other natural disasters. One site provides the reader with a ton of information and links to the latest end time news encouraging the reader to “Not Be Left Behind”. (http://www.prophecyupdate.com/)
We try to find reasons to justify horrible disasters such as Katrina and the earthquake in Pakistan. But I feel that we may not know the “real” reasons but that these natural disasters are a part of the cycle of natural events, a way to keep the population under control. Sounds hard, but there was an ice age. The sun is a variable star, we’ve had numerous weather cycles, the mini ice age was 700 years ago that killed off the Vikings.
Holiday Time in Baghdad
While the American deaths nearly doubled since last year, ( http://seattletimes.nwsource.com ) the drafting of the new constitution the debate continues with the Sunnis; you can book your hotel to visit Iraq and tour the region. The advertisement is marketed to tourist indicating that Iraq is the place to be and visit in spite of the continual bombardment of attacks. ( www.kayak.com ) You can search for flights, hotels and cars!
The Al Mansour Hotel in Baghdad had a high rating of 6 out of 10. One can play tennis, enjoy your leisure time at the health spa and club. You may also relax and enjoy the warm evenings by relaxing near the outdoor pool. They also provide a laundry service, room service, currency exchange and to top it off you can purchase gifts at the gift shop in the lobby and mail them to your friends back home. After a relaxing day near the pool, you can enjoy the evenings chatting with your war friends, journalists and US contract workers at the bar. However, when I attempted to get the hotel price online at Kayak, it failed to provide me with any information. I did find the exact location and the hotels telephone number, just in case I want to vacation in Iraq .
The Palestine Hotel is also listed as their places to consider for your holiday enjoyment. As I recall, the hotel was kindly guarded by the American Army surrounded with tanks and barriers. You only needed to look like a foreigner to enter into the complex. The army presence provided an immense amount of security for those who were concerned about bombings. I stayed in a different hotel, because of the Army presence. Their presence increased my visibility, with my blond hair and blue eyes, I wanted to blend in with the crowd as much as possible.
My hotel was the Al Mansour Hotel, and my cost was 100 American dollars a night. The American menu for dinners accommodated the journalists needs down home cooking and the bar was well stocked for hard to get alcoholic beverages. We had two guards posted at the parking entrance near the front door. One fine evening while chatting at the poolside, my partners and I heard some random gun shots. We were used to the sounds of bullets flying through the air, so we did not really pay any attention and continued with our pleasant conversation. Later that evening, we discovered that one of the guards was shot and killed by a fellow friend, because he would not allow him into the hotel.
This was one of many pleasant stories of my time in Baghdad .
Monday, October 10, 2005
what color should your blog be?
| Your Blog Should Be Purple |
 You're an expressive, offbeat blogger who tends to write about anything and everything. You tend to set blogging trends, and you're the most likely to write your own meme or survey. You are a bit distant though. Your blog is all about you - not what anyone else has to say. |
Awsome! But, I have not written about myself very much....so this is NOT so TRUE. However, I so have a VENTING Blog, a blog where I vent and write about anything for a creative release. At the moment I am trying to quit smoking, so I write about the drama of addictions....maybe I will change my blog color to purple?
If anyone has links that they want to share please submit them to me!!! thanks
this has nothing to do with anything
| Gummy Bears |
 You may be smooshie and taste unnatural, but you're so darn cute. |
I saw this and I thought that it was cute, so I am sharing. I am a gummy bear. really?
ciao
Sunday, October 09, 2005
Suicide and Morality
Suicide and Morality, People's Opinions: An ongoing dialogue on suicide bombings and morality. I do not edit the letters. The words in bold are the beginning of a different persons dialogue. This dialogue became huge, I add new diagloues as they come in at the bottom so new readers can follow the events. I add to this daily since December 15th, 2004. This would make a good study!
let it direct your passion with reason, that your passion may live through its own daily resurrection, and like the phoenix rise above its own ashes. ~Khalil Gibran
If Palestinians were Killed by Suicide Bombers?
I am posting an old article as I read the posts on suicide bombings and morality. I condemn the use of suicide bombimgs but not for reasons of "morality." I just don't want more of our kids to die because they are the future of our society. Is it wrong that innocent Israelis die? You bet! But I would be lying if I said I get as emotional as when I hear of Palestinian innocents dying. I suspect that if people want suicide bombings to end, we're going to have to seek it in a way that elevates Palestinian life and wanting to see our youth live. Talking about the immorality of the loss of Israeli life while they bulldoze homes, kill our youth, and are generally content with occupying our people until violence visited them on their own doorsteps is not going to fly with too many people. Quite simply, we have to love our own people more than we hate them or their stupid and barbaric policies.
by Sherri Muzher | Paeline Chronicle | 19/3/2004 "Is that the problem? Palestinians are not being killed by suicide bombings and therefore their deaths are not going to warrant reactions of horror? .."
By SHERRI MUZHER
I just finished reading a report about the Israeli killing of 32 Palestinians the week of March 7, 2004 .
Ten of them were children and two were women. There was no breaking news or the usual presidential condemnation that often accommodates suicide bombings.
Is that the problem? Palestinians are not being killed by suicide bombings and therefore their deaths are not going to warrant reactions of horror?
It's a question that crosses my mind often when I hear about the repulsion against those who strap bombs. I don't support suicide bombings but I certainly don't distinguish between the deaths of innocents and more importantly, how the killings take place.
I am often asked if I condemn suicide bombings when a discussion hits on the Middle East conflict. Do Israeli-Americans get asked if they condemn occupation, I wonder? Anyhow, I usually ask “If Israelis were killed by military-style ambushes and Palestinians didn't strap bombs on themselves, would you find the deaths more tolerable?”
Silence usually follows.
Call me a human rights activist but results rather than methods anger me. What difference does it make how people are killed? Innocents are being killed on both the Palestinian and Israeli sides.
Specific to the Palestinians, nearly 3,000 have been killed since the uprising for freedom began in September, 2000 – a third of them, children. In the overwhelming majority of cases, Palestinians are killed in non-combative situations, just like Israeli civilians on buses are.
But dead Palestinian innocents are not afforded the dramatic media coverage that Israelis get. No breathless interviews; pictures of carnage; interviews with witnesses and government officials; and/or the traditional condemnation by President George Bush.
Perhaps most disheartening about the media coverage is the implication that the Palestinian-Israeli conflict is calm unless there is a suicide bombing. Try telling that to the Palestinian family of three-year-old Dina Iesa who went into shock and later died after hearing Israel shelling in her neighborhood.
But she didn't die in a suicide bombing. In fact, the 3,000 Palestinians didn't die by suicide bombings. None of them could go outside for a breath of fresh air without permission from the Israeli Defense Force, but hey, they didn't die by soldiers strapping bombs. That's all that matters, right?
What a fickle world we live in when people ignore the root causes of hatred and killing but just want to focus on whether a killer strapped a bomb on him/herself. I guess Palestinians killed by F16 bombings died with smiles on their faces.
Killing is killing !!! and killing innocents is simply"killing innocents". The difference lies in the identity of the killer: is he an occupier ?? or an occupied ?? Making no difference is erroneous , if not naively-simplistic. Merry Christmas Horst Gottwald Muenchen BRD
I don't disagree with the point above. I think the Israeli left (in Israel) has collapsed and is replaced by a phoniness ... Israelis who talk of peace but never admit any fault of their own. It's always the Palestinians who are bad and doing bad things, and they NEVER acknowledge the viciousness of their own violence and state terrorism by the Sharon Government. Still, as a longtime believer in the power of non-violence, I believe that strengthening the moral character of a people gives the oppressed more fortitude and stamina to survive even the most brutal of oppressions. And Israel 's occupation has never been more vicious, brutal and immoral. Imagine the arrogance of a people who believe that they can build a wall around a people to prevent justice or being forced to acknowledge their guilt in causing the conflict and current violence. My issue is not so much to make the Israelis feel good, but to strengthen the moral high ground of the Palestinians and build world support among the nations where it matters most ... Let's face it, we often settle for crumbs in our leadership, our spokespeople, and in our successes. Europe , for example, is worthless, despite their valiant support of our cause. Palestinians need to win back the support of the American public. That's a whole, another issue for later discussion :) But I respect your opinion. Just disagree ..
it is interesting to note that Israelis rarely spoke out against leaving the Occupied Territories and never cared about the suffering of Palestinians until violence visited them on their doorsteps. Who is rewarding violence? Israelis generally make it extremely difficult for those of us who support Satyagraha to do so.
I and the public know
what all schoolchildren learn
those to whom evil is done
do evil in return.
W. H. Auden
US (English-born) critic & poet (1907 - 1973)
My point is that if one is to convince the average Palestinian Joe not to believe in suicide bombings or armed struggle, it needs to be done in a way that talks about loving our own people more and not wanting to lose more of our youth. Preaching morality to the demoralized is not going to fly. We need to do a better job as a people speaking in terms that the layperson understands. BTW, it is interesting to note that Israelis rarely spoke out against leaving the Occupied Territories and never cared about the suffering of Palestinians until violence visited them on their doorsteps. Who is rewarding violence? Israelis generally make it extremely difficult for those of us who support Satyagraha to do so. Ray, I agree with you on a lot of things but while we agree that suicide bombings are wrong, we completely disagree on how to sell the message in a way that will resonate with Palestinians on the street. I just find it difficult to believe that preaching morality to those who cannot even go out for a breath of fresh air without permission from the IDF are going to find your PR strategy convincing. Maybe I'm wrong, but I hear far too much justifiable rage from Palestinians to see it that way. Now, if you talk about saving the youth of our future and loving our people, people are less likely to roll their eyes. Food for thought . . .
If I were tying to make a point on suicide bombings that might be effective, I would use the argument that I would not be giving my enemy what he wants, and the Israeli leadership does thrive on this, with just another excuse to inflict more damage and destruction on the Palestinian population even though this defies all rules of law amd ethics. I don't doubt for one minute that this is what they want and what they try to incite. In that case, as Ray pointed out previously, a strategy of disrupting Israeli society would be much more effective anyway. Sharon is not grieving for Israeli victims. This is a fascade. He is delighted! Another Palestinian who blows himself up is just one less Palestinian who will have a family and bring more Palestinians into the world where your thoughts come in about saving Palestinian youth, which is the future of Palestine , instead of destroying it. Live for Palestine ! Marlene
Absolutely! The breaking down of society is precisely what the Israeli government wants. Civil disruption is the way to go, or if people are determined to still hit militarily, target the army where it hurts. That is completely within the realm of the law, and it hurts Israel 's psyche far more. On a personal level, it saves our own youth. These days, that should be our concern. There is an Israeli rabbi who once said that the lives of one thousand Arabs is not worth the fingernail of a Jew. I won't go so far as to be that hateful and despicable, but I would caution Palestinians to remember how much Israelis treasure their own lives. Why are our youth being wasted? And consider that the PA is going to negotiate a final deal anyway. The loss of Palestinian life is unforgivable.
A vision of hope and a better tomorrow is what must be conveyed to our precious youth. We must convince them that their lives carry a great amount of importance to us and the rest of the Palestinian people and should not be wasted in such a manner!
I am still baffled as to why Israeli roads and infrastructure, particularly the ones in the occupied territories are not targeted!
While I support a world in which "Jewish people" are living in
prosperity and safety with and within every other nation and people,
Israel and the "Jewish people" cannot be allowed to ride rough shod
over others.
If the "Jewish people" wish to live in peace with the non Jews of
the world, let them show it in their actions. This would include
their involvements in infiltrating governments such as America
government and formenting wars against non Jewish nations in the
Middle East and worldwide. Let the "Jewish people" be known for
their ability to find ways for everyone to live in peace and end
wars rather than being known for their sly formentations of wars and
strife worldwide.
May it begin in Palestine . Otherwise, may the fighting increase
until there is complete victory over these anti Christ, gentile
hating, world dominating Judeao/Zionist/Bolshevik monsters.
Mik
I can see stopping suicide bombings, as they guarantee the death of
the one carrying out the attack. To me it has never been the
warriors way. To die in battle against ones enemy with some hope of
survival and victory is one thing, but to fight in ways that always
guarantee the death of the warrior seems wrong from a survival of
the species and family standpoint. It is one thing to sacrifice
oneself in the heat of battle, and yet another to guarantee one's
own destruction.
However to give up all resistance while ones enemy continues to
descimate the Palestinian people, showing no respect for them, their
property, or their families, while the enemy ( Israel ) continues it's
aggressions and killings may be self defeating as well.
Yet, we are still waiting for Israel to show that is their
intention. The intentions that Israel shows, judging from the
political speeches in the Knesset, it to continue on their slow
ethnic cleansing and genocide of the Palestinian people. On at least
a weekly schedule they call out for even more wars against Syria and
Iran , and we know their manipulations within the American government
to attack all other Arab countries as well. So why should armed
resistance stop?
Setting aside suicide bombings and armed struggle sounds like a good
idea provided Israel was dedicated to ending it's aggressions,
murder, assasinations, land theft and daily torture and torment of
the Palestinian and non Jewish people throughout the Middle East and
the World.
If Israel wished to create a situation in which everyone was working
for the common good of all, let it so be!! It would seem to be the
best for everyone....
On suicide bombings ... they are illegal and immoral and wrong. Period. You don't kill innocent people or hold an entire nation guilty for the actions of its leaders ... Palestinians make that very good argument all the time, yet some say nothingt when Palesitnians kill innocent Israelis in this most vicious and brutal manner. There is NO COMPROMISE on suicide bombings ... it is an ugly, uIslamic, unChristian act of horrendous immoral violence. People on both sides are committing illegal acts. How can we, as Palestinians, denounce Israel for violating Palestinian rights through such things as collective punishment, when we permit ourselves to rationalize the collective guilt of all Jews in Israel . They are not all guilty of crimes against Palesitnians and many non-Jews are killed, too. There is one morality. One principle. One rule of law. One standard. One justice. WHen you apply it to both sides fairly, then you can argue that justice is on your side. Don't let passion turn into emotion and then violence. It hasn't done one thing to help Palestine and that is a fact. Ray Hanania
A suicide bomber commits first a suicide and then secondly he kills his ennemy,invader,opressor. If an Israeli would commit a suicide bombing he or she will be killing his own victims. Therefore Dr. S. Muzher is utterly wrong in making any comparaison , as she did ,initialy. What she wrote was 180 degree away from correct. Horst
Dear Ray , I see now why the Americans gave you a reward. Was it the same crime when the British bommbed Germany as when Germany bombed England ???? Was it the same crime when an Algerian shot a French Soldier in Algeria , when the French were the occupiers ??? Why should we be more "Catholish than the Pope" ?? why should we turn the left cheak and the right cheak and again the left cheak,etc ?? Why the hypocrisy when you have the moral-high-ground ?? are we fishing for an Oscar or for a Nobel Prize ?? Horst Gottwald BRD
Why would one speak on a subject as important as this, without
knowledge or acknowledgement of the law in these matters?
There is absolutely NO DOUBT Israel has always been on the wrong side
of the law for decades now; whereas Palestinians are not on the wrong
side of the law, and have not violated the law - not even what you
refer to as "suicide bombers" are illegal. Because Israel is illegally
occupying Palestine , such a legal and physical fact, by international
law, gives Palestinians the legal right to use what the Geneva
Conventions term as, "....any means necessary" to evict the illegal
occupiers from Palestine .
The entire world knows Israel and the US government are partners in
crime against Palestine and Muslims worldwide.
Too bad the American people have been brainwashed by the
Corporate-Zionist media in America , for their entire lives. most
Americans don't even KNOW Israel and the U.S. is and has been on the
wrong side of the law since day one.
.r o n
Raja, is that your new "name?" Horst? Raja, I stand by what I said. If you are into Palestinians blowing themselves up, why don't you offer youself up for sacrifice first. Goodness, how easy it is to push for others to be killed from the comfort of one's home.
A suicide bomber commits first a suicide and then secondly he kills his ennemy,invader,opressor. If an Israeli would commit a suicide bombing he or she will be killing his own victims. Therefore Dr. S. Muzher is utterly wrong in making any comparaison , as she did ,initialy. What she wrote was 180 degree away from correct. Horst
it is interesting to note that Israelis rarely spoke out against leaving the Occupied Territories and never cared about the suffering of Palestinians until violence visited them on their doorsteps. Who is rewarding violence? Israelis generally make it extremely difficult for those of us who support Satyagraha to do so. >>>
Good point Palestinians were very passive under the Israeli occupation for 20 years, from 1967 until the first intifada in 1987 so there was nothing for the Israelis to complain about. Until that time, in the United States, I would say no one was paying any attention to the Palestinians, and they were like a people who never existed, which is the way Israel would have liked it to remain.
The first intifada was mostly all civilians who had no weapons other than stones and molotov cocktails, yet they were brutalized just for that. The first suicide bombing didn't happen until 1994 which was 7 years after the first uprising, and then 27 years into the Israeli occupation, just after Baruch Goldstein killed 29 Muslim worshippers in Hebron, for which the Israeli government did nothing when they should have removed the crazed fanatics. The lives of the Palestinians still remained unchanged. So it seems very likely that without armed struggle, the Palestinians will be swept under the rug again unless there is some kind of very strong, unified worldwide effort made on their behalf.
Marlene
Ron, then tell me how I defend this:
The Israelis say that the Palestinians "breed" suicide bombers, encourage
their children to become martyrs.
We deny that, right?
Then why do I have a Palestinian friend, very very financially successful
and perhaps someone people here on this list have met and seen in the media,
who would actually send his son to die as a suicide bomber if he could?
Why do I know of one Palestinian mother who has, despite me cringing when I
hear this, who indeed has given birth to twelve children, a couple who have
so far become suicide bombers and her reason for "replacing" them with more?
This exists, and it's despicable. But there *are* people, well educated and
very well off, who would do this?
It is only partly, according to them, to do with Israel .
So how do you defend that?
Tanya
The Israelis say that the Palestinians "breed" suicide bombers, encourage
their children to become martyrs.
We deny that, right?
Then why do I have a Palestinian friend, very very financially successful
and perhaps someone people here on this list have met and seen in the media,
who would actually send his son to die as a suicide bomber if he could?
Why do I know of one Palestinian mother who has, despite me cringing when I
hear this, who indeed has given birth to twelve children, a couple who have
so far become suicide bombers and her reason for "replacing" them with more?
This exists, and it's despicable. But there *are* people, well educated and
very well off, who would do this?
It is only partly, according to them, to do with Israel .
So how do you defend that?
Tanya
I don't speak for the Palestinian Authority, nor the PLO, nor Sherri or any
other member here.
But you, Ron, are out of line *in my opinion*.
You call Sherri a phoney? You cannot be serious.
Do you seriously think that Palestinians....all of them...MUST think the way
you do because you are enlightened and they are not?
What makes you think Sherri is inactive?
Fighting is your answer, isn't it? That's all?
Sad, so sad.
Tanya
other member here.
But you, Ron, are out of line *in my opinion*.
You call Sherri a phoney? You cannot be serious.
Do you seriously think that Palestinians....all of them...MUST think the way
you do because you are enlightened and they are not?
What makes you think Sherri is inactive?
Fighting is your answer, isn't it? That's all?
Sad, so sad.
Tanya
Ron, if you "respectfully" disagree, then "respectfully" disagree.
I recall just about six weeks ago you left a post asking to be enlightened and that you had a lot to learn (something to that effect). Now, six weeks later, you seem to know everything and others know nothing and you're the only one who understands the hopelessness and despair of the Palestinians, which is a good thing, but please don't accuse anyone of not understanding when they have long been involved in the Palestinian struggle, which is sometimes just being armed with a keyboard.
We're all well aware that the law is with the Palestinians which certainly legitimizes their struggle and makes it just without any doubt, so if laws were adhered to, it sure would solve a lof of problems, but that is not the way it has thus far worked.
I hope you at least looked up Sherri's name in Google to read some of the wonderful articles she's written which you may also learn further from.
Marlene
You forgot to mention that I work for Mossad and was solely responsible for the drafting of the Oslo Accords -- I managed to do this at the tender age of 23. <<
You too?! Sherri...welcome to the club! ;-)
>>You have got to be kidding me, Ron. I question the agenda of those who spend their energies trying to bring down other activists -- I truly do. You are not the first one I have come across to try and do this, and sadly won't be the last. You are free to look up my witings on the internet. Then, come back to me with your rubbish.<<
Amen. Sadly and with regrets Sherri...amen.
It's not worth it. Our efforts need to be confined to changing things, not arguing the same old story to those who are quite fresh to this. (The “radical” thought process playing out...)
You too?! Sherri...welcome to the club! ;-)
>>You have got to be kidding me, Ron. I question the agenda of those who spend their energies trying to bring down other activists -- I truly do. You are not the first one I have come across to try and do this, and sadly won't be the last. You are free to look up my witings on the internet. Then, come back to me with your rubbish.<<
Amen. Sadly and with regrets Sherri...amen.
It's not worth it. Our efforts need to be confined to changing things, not arguing the same old story to those who are quite fresh to this. (The “radical” thought process playing out...)
I read Sherri's post and see her love of Palestine and Palestinians in very word. Some of the postings on this list also relay a love of Palestine and Palestinians, however, they're mixed with bullying, one-sidedness, personal attacks and condescending mannerisms.
For example, Ray Hanania is always being misread. Ray, a Palestinian, has done more for Palestine by being a professional journalist and writing about the Palestinian cause. Precisely because he is Palestinian, he is taken seriously. How many Palestinians write columns regularly in a major metropolitan area? Even if we don't agree with his views, his message of injustice is there. It gives information to the most misinformed and uniformed population. It's not easy putting Palestine in front of yourself in America. Ray does just that. To think that he's in it for money or fame or he's a spy is insane. Why are we blinded by that? A question that I think will continue to be asked as long as we continue to create negativity amongst ourselves.
you are dead right.
I'm wondering if it's worth it to continue here also, because there are valuable items posted many a time.
But this is what we see over and over and over: fighting and in-fighting because this person here doesn't believe exactly what this person here believes.
This is exactly what we all know happens, and it leads to nothing .
I posted some other messages yesterday along these lines but haven't seen them posted. Have they come through?
Tanya
Oh my..........what it boils down to is, you believe Palestinian "suicide bombers" lives were spent in vain, when they could have lived there life out in peace instead.....I respectfully disagree.... that's why I think you're a phony, to a certain extent......because you apparently don't truly understand and comprehend the hopelessness and despair, comingled with the "suicide bomber's" attempt to make their life mean something more than just one of unilateral suffering. These people don't have an air force, navy and marines, nuclear bombs and helicopters.......but they do have the self-determination to fight their oppressors the best way they can..........many Westerners cannot comprehend this, because of most Westerners' lack of empathy in these matters. To sit quitely inactive, while your oppressors destroy you and your homeland seems unreasonable to me. r o n
trying to explain what? if Palestinians would just stop the "suicide bombing" then things could get better? That seems to be Sherri's point. If Palestinians would just stop the suicide bombings, then Israelis would stop killing Palestinians? If Palestinians would just stop the suicide bombings, then the world community will come to Palestinians' rescue? My point is what I said before: I'm not sending "suicide bombers" to die. I prefer no Palestinians or Israelis to die. I do understand Palestinian "suicide bombers" are a by-product of Israeli oppression and occupation - not a by-product of themselves. "Suicide bombers" are not a solution, but a symptom of decades of hopelessness and Israeli occupation/oppression. The disease is Israeli & U.S. lawlessness - the hypocrisy of our democracy - and The Cure is the international community, especially the United States, forcing Israel to comply with the 65+ U.N. Resolutions Israel is in violation of. There's your "Peace Plan" : FOLLOW THE LAW! .r o n
(12/23) Whenever I am asked about my support for suicide bombings, I always respond that
the question is an attempt to change the subject from Israeli crimes against humanity.
That is precisely what it is.
AFter the listener has had a chance to digest that, I go on to say that NO ONE outside of Palestine has a right to pass judgment on the tactics of resistance. NO ONE.
Since I have ususally been talking to French people, who are on the whole much more reasonable that US audiences, people usually do not find this response unreasonable.
But I continue to use it in the United States. The Zionists groan and howl, but after a time that dies away. I can tell most of the people listening understand.
the question is an attempt to change the subject from Israeli crimes against humanity.
That is precisely what it is.
AFter the listener has had a chance to digest that, I go on to say that NO ONE outside of Palestine has a right to pass judgment on the tactics of resistance. NO ONE.
Since I have ususally been talking to French people, who are on the whole much more reasonable that US audiences, people usually do not find this response unreasonable.
But I continue to use it in the United States. The Zionists groan and howl, but after a time that dies away. I can tell most of the people listening understand.
(12/23) We all understand.
It isn't working.
Now what?
Tanya
It isn't working.
Now what?
Tanya
Oh, no lecturing here from me.
I merely state that the international world has a problem with that. It is their opinion, and this is the biggest hindrance outside of Israel itself.
(12/23) The leadership will change, but what we have now is still pretty corrupt. The stories I have on how to operate within the PA or PLO are shameful. We know that Marwan Barghouti was a “good” man, and yet he's the one in jail. He's the one with the tiny apartment in a dangerous area. The others? Mansions and chauffeurs.
Appalling, when the people suffer so much. Do they deserve our undying and unswerving support? Is it time to call them to the table and demand proper change, not some petty paper chase?
How I wish Marwan stayed in; he promised he would not back out, and yet he did. How I wish Rantisi was still alive. There was so much hope in him.
What we have is what we have.
But under no circumstances to I lecture Palestinians there on morality. I merely point out what we all know: the view “outside” isn't changing, no matter how many deaths and suicides.
There has to be a better way.
I merely state that the international world has a problem with that. It is their opinion, and this is the biggest hindrance outside of Israel itself.
(12/23) The leadership will change, but what we have now is still pretty corrupt. The stories I have on how to operate within the PA or PLO are shameful. We know that Marwan Barghouti was a “good” man, and yet he's the one in jail. He's the one with the tiny apartment in a dangerous area. The others? Mansions and chauffeurs.
Appalling, when the people suffer so much. Do they deserve our undying and unswerving support? Is it time to call them to the table and demand proper change, not some petty paper chase?
How I wish Marwan stayed in; he promised he would not back out, and yet he did. How I wish Rantisi was still alive. There was so much hope in him.
What we have is what we have.
But under no circumstances to I lecture Palestinians there on morality. I merely point out what we all know: the view “outside” isn't changing, no matter how many deaths and suicides.
There has to be a better way.
(12/27) "I know why you aren't calling for Israel to comply with the law. I know
why you are obfuscating the issue of the imperative need for Israel and
the U.S. government to comply with the law, in order to create
conditions for peace. I don't hear you pontificating on the need for
the guilty parties to start following the law. You act and speak as if
Palestinians are wrongdoers who need to correct their evil,
unproductive ways." You forgot to mention that I work for Mossad and was solely responsible for the drafting of the Oslo Accords -- I managed to do this at the tender age of 23.
You have got to be kidding me, Ron. I question the agenda of those who spend their energies trying to bring down other activists -- I truly do. You are not the first one I have come across to try and do this, and sadly won't be the last. You are free to look up my witings on the internet. Then, come back to me with your rubbish.
why you are obfuscating the issue of the imperative need for Israel and
the U.S. government to comply with the law, in order to create
conditions for peace. I don't hear you pontificating on the need for
the guilty parties to start following the law. You act and speak as if
Palestinians are wrongdoers who need to correct their evil,
unproductive ways." You forgot to mention that I work for Mossad and was solely responsible for the drafting of the Oslo Accords -- I managed to do this at the tender age of 23.
You have got to be kidding me, Ron. I question the agenda of those who spend their energies trying to bring down other activists -- I truly do. You are not the first one I have come across to try and do this, and sadly won't be the last. You are free to look up my witings on the internet. Then, come back to me with your rubbish.(12/27) Just reading this whole exchange is so sad. It has prompted me to leave many lists and stop being involved in some major Palestinian organizations. I do a lot of organizing around peace and support for non-violence. When I reach out to the Palestinians and different groups this is what I see. I find myself depressed and sad--we are truly a mess.
This is not a personal attack, just an observation. Sometimes I really wonder about the people who so vehemently argue for Palestinian rights--not exclusive to this list. Will peace leave them twiddling their thumbs... is it the thrill of the fight? When it gets ugly, those things cross my mind--whether they are Arab/Palestinian or not. What are we looking to the future for? Chicago's Palestinian community mirrors this exchange. So much more can be done TOGETHER without the conspiracy theories, personal attacks. Can we agree to disagree and work together on common themes, or are we destined to languish in anger and dispair... Saffiya
(12/27) Ron, That seems to be my point? Go back and read my posts to see the point of what I said. I will ask you a rhetorical question -- rhetorical because I don't care to hear or read your patronizing conspiracies. Many of us know Palestinians who resisted the Israeli Occupation in the first Intifada. They didn't blow themselves up. Are they not worthy of our respect? Resistance comes in many forms. Even succeeding in the arts is a form of resistance, such as Ammar Hassan. Look at the Palestinian soccer team who are fighting against all odds to make it to the World Cup in 2006. Are they not heroes for daring to dream? And why do I say that the PA will negotiate the final deal? Because it will. Watch the news. It's not my choice. It's the reality. The kicker for me is that most of those who keep talking about fighting and death are people that live here in the States. They eat, drink, and sleep in safety but damn the Palestinians overseas if they say they are tired and just want some normalcy in their lives. One of the most disappointing aspects in this struggle for Palestinian justice is the infighting and unbelivable lack of tolerance toward people who want to try new approaches. I don't think there is a point in continuing this discussion given the personal attacks. Some people thrive on it but if we are to make a difference, we have to stick together. Those who don't get this simple point are part of the reason that 57 years of struggling have brought us us no further than 1947. That is nothing to be proud of.
trying to explain what? if Palestinians would just stop the "suicide
bombing" then things could get better? That seems to be Sherri's point.
If Palestinians would just stop the suicide bombings, then Israelis
would stop killing Palestinians?
If Palestinians would just stop the suicide bombings, then the world
community will come to Palestinians' rescue?
(12/27) My point is what I said before:
I'm not sending "suicide bombers" to die. I prefer no Palestinians or
Israelis to die.
I do understand Palestinian "suicide bombers" are a by-product of
Israeli oppression and occupation - not a by-product of themselves.
"Suicide bombers" are not a solution, but a symptom of decades of
hopelessness and Israeli occupation/oppression.
The disease is Israeli & U.S. lawlessness - the hypocrisy of our
democracy - and The Cure is the international community, especially the
United States, forcing Israel to comply with the 65+ U.N. Resolutions
Israel is in violation of. There's your "Peace Plan" : FOLLOW THE LAW!
bombing" then things could get better? That seems to be Sherri's point.
If Palestinians would just stop the suicide bombings, then Israelis
would stop killing Palestinians?
If Palestinians would just stop the suicide bombings, then the world
community will come to Palestinians' rescue?
(12/27) My point is what I said before:
I'm not sending "suicide bombers" to die. I prefer no Palestinians or
Israelis to die.
I do understand Palestinian "suicide bombers" are a by-product of
Israeli oppression and occupation - not a by-product of themselves.
"Suicide bombers" are not a solution, but a symptom of decades of
hopelessness and Israeli occupation/oppression.
The disease is Israeli & U.S. lawlessness - the hypocrisy of our
democracy - and The Cure is the international community, especially the
United States, forcing Israel to comply with the 65+ U.N. Resolutions
Israel is in violation of. There's your "Peace Plan" : FOLLOW THE LAW!
(12/28) It seems we've created a micro-cosmic mini Palestine here that seems
to mirror what's going on in Palestine many times. Some think
ending violence is the best way, others think continuing
in military and physical struggle is the right path to take.
Both factions prefer peace, yet it escapes from everyone, each
blaming the approach of the other for the failing to obtain their
objectives.
There's some action along both lines, both peaceful and violent, yet
nothing is accomplished that frees the Palestinians from their daily
strife and struggle. Such is the nature of this beast.
One thing for sure, this 'dividedness' is part of the problem
in achieving victory for the Palestinians. The lack of a clear
and well defined plan that everyone agrees on makes moving forward
more difficult. Following International Law would soon lead to peace,
yet that is far too simple/difficult for Israel to do, as they covet
the land of the Palestians and for all these years have been
stealing it bit by bit.
I'd like to see the Palestinians win or at least obtain a decent
settlement (no pun intended)in this situation, if there are to be
no "winners" in this. To Continue as it's been for the past years
only wears more heavily on everyone. I would hope that a clear
direction and plan that will be followed by everyone can be made and
followed. Otherwise, resources and lives will continue to be wasted
by everyone involved in this.
Hopefully, the new Palestinian leadership will be able to overcome
these obstacles and obtain a decent settlement if it is at all
possible. My best wishes to whoever shall be chosen to lead. May he
lead the Palestinian people to safety and security.
Mik
to mirror what's going on in Palestine many times. Some think
ending violence is the best way, others think continuing
in military and physical struggle is the right path to take.
Both factions prefer peace, yet it escapes from everyone, each
blaming the approach of the other for the failing to obtain their
objectives.
There's some action along both lines, both peaceful and violent, yet
nothing is accomplished that frees the Palestinians from their daily
strife and struggle. Such is the nature of this beast.
One thing for sure, this 'dividedness' is part of the problem
in achieving victory for the Palestinians. The lack of a clear
and well defined plan that everyone agrees on makes moving forward
more difficult. Following International Law would soon lead to peace,
yet that is far too simple/difficult for Israel to do, as they covet
the land of the Palestians and for all these years have been
stealing it bit by bit.
I'd like to see the Palestinians win or at least obtain a decent
settlement (no pun intended)in this situation, if there are to be
no "winners" in this. To Continue as it's been for the past years
only wears more heavily on everyone. I would hope that a clear
direction and plan that will be followed by everyone can be made and
followed. Otherwise, resources and lives will continue to be wasted
by everyone involved in this.
Hopefully, the new Palestinian leadership will be able to overcome
these obstacles and obtain a decent settlement if it is at all
possible. My best wishes to whoever shall be chosen to lead. May he
lead the Palestinian people to safety and security.
Mik
12/28 - These direct and oblique personal attacks are getting no one
anywhere. Is there some way we can shift this topic to one of
showing how 'non violence' or "direct fighting" might achieve
victory for the Palestinians?
Are there any other possibilities that might be considered?
Mik
anywhere. Is there some way we can shift this topic to one of
showing how 'non violence' or "direct fighting" might achieve
victory for the Palestinians?
Are there any other possibilities that might be considered?
Mik
12/28 - Good point Ron....how can we get our American government to obey
International Law? How can we get our American government to get
Israel to obey International Law?
Talking to the State Department, Congressmen and Senators has so far
gotten us nowhere, as they prefer to back Israel in it's agenda. I'm
not sure if AIPAC being turned inside out by the FBI will change
things one iota or not, but it may help.
We're faced with the problem of Israeli's coming over, to say
nothing of dual citizenshippers, and writing US Policy. Our
President lauds the AEI group, and they're among the worst offenders
in this area. JINSA might be another Think Tank that's so pro Israel
they can see nothing else.
How do we free our country from these folks?
Mik
International Law? How can we get our American government to get
Israel to obey International Law?
Talking to the State Department, Congressmen and Senators has so far
gotten us nowhere, as they prefer to back Israel in it's agenda. I'm
not sure if AIPAC being turned inside out by the FBI will change
things one iota or not, but it may help.
We're faced with the problem of Israeli's coming over, to say
nothing of dual citizenshippers, and writing US Policy. Our
President lauds the AEI group, and they're among the worst offenders
in this area. JINSA might be another Think Tank that's so pro Israel
they can see nothing else.
How do we free our country from these folks?
Mik
12/28 - Would you say that Israeli mom's are "raising their children to be
murderous IDF/IOF men, Tanya?
As one who's 'lived by the sword' in the military, it's not something
that mothers and fathers raise their children for, but in military
struggles, it's just something that happens...
One of these days humanity will wake up, wise up, and beat their
swords into plowshares and fast cars, but until then, no one will
accept being bludgeoned to death, and having their land stolen by an
insatiable enemy who wishes to kill not only the fighters, but ones
whole family without a fight to the death.
Whether the weapons chosen for the fight are weapons of violence
and pain, or non violent resistance is for those who are fighting to
decide. Still, if ones non Violence is yet met with more violence
and theft, how long will people continue in non violence? At some
point, enough is enough.
Mik
murderous IDF/IOF men, Tanya?
As one who's 'lived by the sword' in the military, it's not something
that mothers and fathers raise their children for, but in military
struggles, it's just something that happens...
One of these days humanity will wake up, wise up, and beat their
swords into plowshares and fast cars, but until then, no one will
accept being bludgeoned to death, and having their land stolen by an
insatiable enemy who wishes to kill not only the fighters, but ones
whole family without a fight to the death.
Whether the weapons chosen for the fight are weapons of violence
and pain, or non violent resistance is for those who are fighting to
decide. Still, if ones non Violence is yet met with more violence
and theft, how long will people continue in non violence? At some
point, enough is enough.
Mik
12/28 - Whenever a Palestinian child is born,
We win
Whenever that child goes to school,
We win
Whenever a Palestinian child excels,
We win
Whenever a Palestinian child graduates,
We win
Whenever a Palestinian graduates college
We win
Whenever a Palestinian becomes a professional (doctor, lawyer, engineer, and so on)
We win
Whenever he or she gets married,
We win
Whenever there is a Palestinian wedding,
We win
Whenever he or she has Palestinian children of their own,
We win!!!
Whenever I take my 3 children back home to Palestine and see their eyes light up upon seeing their “homeland”,
We win
Whenever my children answer “Beit Hanina, Palestine ”, when they are asked where they come from, although they were born right here in Michigan ,
We win!!!
Whenever Palestinian children, who are born and raised in America , decide to send their Eid money to Palestinian refugees instead of spending it toys and video games,
We Win!
The point is, WE WIN by just existing! We win by being steadfast in the face of overwhelming odds! We win, by facing these odds, and yet keeping our humanity intact!
We win because a less resilient and resolute people would have ceased to exist long ago, consigned to the trash heap of history!
Whenever a mother endures unbearable pain and anguish, just so that her children are fed and educated,
We win!
I need not look no farther than my own Palestinian mother, who was married at 13, was a refugee on 3 different occasions, braved 2 wars, raised 6 children on her own in a male dominated society in very harsh times, although illiterate, could teach the most educated of men a few things, fought against crooked lawyers and Israeli officials and kept most of our family lands intact, even though on many occasions, they tried to take advantage of her!
Hanni
12/28 - Right here in the good old USA we hear of fathers and mothers speaking of the pride they feel sending their sons and daughter to fight for their country, even though they are fighting a war many thousands of miles away and one that is not directly threatening this country! I have heard MANY American fathers say that they will gladly send their children to fight and die for their country!
I reject much of what Tanya has written. She does not take the context in which some remarks are made!
Mike
12/28 - We win when it's least expected that we stand together, advocate for non-violence (because they want to label us as violent animals) and organize a movement so strong--one message repeated over and over again. Message: International laws to be abided and non-violent resistance--what would that look like... the road to concessions, I hope. Then those Congresspeople and organized lobbies will be dumbfounded and try to re-strategize on how to thwart our efforts. We in the States should rise up to the challenge because we are not suffering the same way.
Saffiya
12/28 - I am glad that you brought this up:
How many of you on this list have written or made an attempt to meet with your congressional representatives?
They should be hearing from you on a regular basis, even if its just to “educate them”!
How many have taken the time to write at least ONE letter to the Editor of your hometown or national paper?
It's easy belonging to these discussion groups, while doing nothing else! These discussion groups should be a source of inspiration and information so that you might be able to be more effective in your own activism! We here in America still can't seem to understand and learn how the “game is played in this country”…
I really can't help but shake my head and laugh when a member of one of these discussion lists threatens to leave and or reiterates that they are “wasting their time by being here”! No one is forcing anyone to be here or on any other list. We are here for ONE reason and ONE reason only:
To help and support the Palestinian people in their JUST and LEGITIMATE struggle for freedom!
Our own sense of “self importance” means absolutely NOTHING. In the end, we are all guided by our convictions and our own conscience…
Just my 2 “cents” worth…Not shekels!
Mike
12/28 - Tanya, don't you think the Palestinians are demonized enough without adding to it. Well-educated people have committed the worst crimes against humanity while many Palestinian mothers are no different than many mothers of soldiers who are proud of sending their children off to fight, kill and die for reasons that don't even make sense and who do not live under oppressive conditions, yet no one calls that "despicable." Marlene
12/28 - The dialogue of the deaf I believe my dear friends that you have reached with your dialogue on the question concerning suicide bombings, or what others call martyr operations, to a dead end, or what is known as: "The dialogue of the deaf" May I suggest that you discuss the question of Zionist atrocities, and consider that when they import young Jews from around the world, pollute their brains with Zionist racialism, put them in military fatigue and send them to kill the occupied indigenous population of Palestine and be killed, that this is more then suicide bombing???!!! Or put an end to this lub lub? Noting that some of the participants in this dialogue are equalizing between the occupier and the occupied, between the persecutor and the persecuted... and between the invaders and the resistance Palestinian Arabs face them with???
Tanya writes 12/28 - This exists, and it's despicable. But there *are* people, well educated and
very well off, who would do this?
It is only partly, according to them, to do with Israel . ”
very well off, who would do this?
It is only partly, according to them, to do with Israel . ”
12/28 - So you mean to tell me that “it is only partly to do with Israel ” that there are suicide bombers? So people kill themselves for sport? Or is it a “defect” in their makeup? Or maybe, they are just “barbarians and beasts” who possess no redeeming qualities as human beings? Or maybe they are not as advanced as the western culture, the very same culture and societies that gave us the crusades, the Holocaust, 2 World Wars, and the murder of over 3 million innocent people in Vietnam and other places, just to name a few!
In the past, I have tried to understand your often erroneous and misguided views, BUT you are totally out of line and DEAD wrong! Palestinian mothers DO NOT breed suicide bombers. You are taking the Zionist party line when you state such utter nonsense. I have seen many times over, when a Palestinian mother loses a son to an Israeli terrorist (yes they are terrorists in every sense of the word) and in that very emotional moment, they say things that are taken out of context, recorded and replayed and quoted ENDLES SL Y by Zionists and their sympathizers in the media, by Evangelical fanatics, and most effectively, by HonestReporting's propaganda “documentary”, Relentless, which has been touring the country and being screened and supported by the Christian Zionists!
In fact, you repeated, word for word, the same things that I have seen in the Zionist propaganda “documentary”!
NO Palestinian mother or father would ever choose death over a normal life for their children, a life that offers hope and a better tomorrow. No Palestinian mother would choose death over life for her children, NO matter what you and the Zionists say!
You underestimate and discount the love that Palestinian mothers have for their children as if they were “less” than other mothers in the world. In fact, I really have yet to see ANY mothers, who are as loving, caring, and willing to sacrifice as much as Palestinian mothers.
Palestinian mothers are often placed in the most difficult of circumstances imaginable. They endure hardships that you or any one else that is NOT living there can imagine.
In 1967, my own mother braved Israeli gunfire and humiliation just so that she could get us some water and a little bit of flour so that we would not starve as we sought refuge in scorpion infested caves for over 3 weeks. In 1967, my PALESTINIAN MOTHER stood between an Israeli soldier's machine gun and my older brother, telling the Israeli soldier he would have to kill her FIRST, before killing her child in front of her eyes!
My Palestinian mother was by no means “unique”, in fact, she more accurately represented Palestinian mothers than the demonizing nature of what you wrote!
During the first Intifada, whenever Israeli soldiers would try to arrest a Palestinian boy, Palestinian women who happened to be standing by would fight with the soldiers and prevent his arrest or beating by shielding him and saying that they were his MOTHER. This happened so often that an Israeli commander once lamented to the Palestinian women (about 5 of them who were claiming the young Palestinian as their son) “Do all Palestinian children have more than one mother?” To which a Palestinian mother answered, “Yes”, Palestinian children have many mothers, while you, the Israeli soldiers, have MANY fathers”…
Mike
12/28 - what the?????? hmmmm........Tanya's western mind has come into full view........thank you for revealing your true point of view.....now I understand Tanya; certainly Tanya means well and wants peace for everyone.........that's good........but, and it's a big butt, clearly Tanya knows NOT of the personal feelings of oppression and anger at having your family members killed by Israeli occupying forces, or knowing you can never return to your homeland, or knowing that the incredibly difficult life on the ground in Palestine is not going to change in their lifetimes; Tanya could easily envision herself walking into a Palestinian classroom with George Bush and walking to the front of the classroom and telling the teacher and kids: "No teacher, stop teaching those children to hate and fight your Israeli oppressors/rapists and killers. You should just accept this U.S. sponsored violence and systematic destruction of your homes and flesh. How dare you complain of your abuse? You're abusing the Israelis and your own kids, by fighting back....do not resist......just take this Israeli genocide with a coke and a smile. It's all your fault........stop discussng how Israelis have killed your family members and committed one of history's nastiest genocidal oppressions ever. Stop discussing your reality amongst yourselves, and just sit quitely and don't ever fight back this Israeli occupation." Tanya must not have ever heard of the six degrees of separation......I think Tanya has 600 degrees of separation between her and Palestinian reality -death and heartache by Israel. Tanya doesn't realize that for most Palestinians, there are no degrees of separation.....virtually every Palestinian has a family member who has been killed, wounded and/or personally or systematically abused by Israelis.........Tanya is viewing the plight of Palestinians through western glasses, dripping with Zionist rhetoric. Tanya doesn't realize that every single solitary act of violence by Palestinians is very much lawful and of a defensive nature. Apparently, Tanya doesn't realize who the aggressor is, and who the victim is..........no surprise there.......very typical of westerners.............Tanya would make a good Republican...........r o n
12/28 - ...I don't want to take sides in this but i have to say all what is happening to do with this is VERY NORMAL....we all come from diffrent backgrounds and have been raised in our families in diffrent ways from the other....and no two minds are the same....this is the people in this group and the world in general....we have diffrent minds so that we can complete each other as no one is an island whole of themselves! unfortunatley in this group it is obvious not only that we are diffrent people but some have diffrent intentions to why one would join this group... however i do second Adib's opinion here.....instead of focusing on those poor humans who've lived lifeless lives and died in that way terrible...we can help stop further by doing things like picking out a few crimes and asking the murders to be brought to justice as that way no one will think "i should take justice into my own hands as it doesn't exist in this dark world!"...such the killing of ordinary humans has become routine (And i remeber someone warning not to let that happen the second week of the intifada started...unfortunatley no one listens to people who make sense!) a few crimes more horrendous that others in natures can be picked like the shooting in the head of those two babies a 6 month year old and a 3 month year old baby boy in Hebron in summer 3 years ago.....and then work the way to get all the other criminals to a true justice..........until that happens in a world that infants so young get shot in the head what kind of hope exactly do we give to the teenaged and young adults of the family of the children killed that way??? anyway......just this and no need to get angry on anyone or gang up on anyone or getting a high blood pressure at anything.....we're diffrent people and everything about us diffrent so discord is only natural...... just my opinion........and i again i say what Adib said here i agree with.
12/28 - I see all the anger at Tanya for what she wrote. I hate to say this but I have heard some people say the same thing... they'd send their children to die. They say it, I believe, out of frustration. The few that have made it to the airwaves have been exploited to the full extent. It's ugly to see and taken out of context. Remember the video (I saw it in the U.S.) of the mother saying goodbye knowing her son that was going on a suicide mission--that's what they made us think anyway and shortly after Laura Bush said that she does not feel sorry for Palestinian mothers that send their children to die--or something like that. Those people are the exception... not the rule and maybe what was said or videoed was taken out of context--maybe not. The whole situation was brought about by the brutal occupation in my opinion.
Also, religion has a lot to do with it too. Palestine is not Islamic only and I think those that have done a lot of the violence against innocents are Muslims on a mission from God. When in fact it is so against Islam to do such a thing to oneself and others. That is how I was raised as a Muslim. I personally, don't think the Prophet (pbuh) would advocate for such a thing.
Saffiya
12/28 - I can say that I have and I have also initiated letter writing campaigns to both Senators from my state and gotten responses. I have gotten meetings with two Congresspeople and I also attended meetings with the State Dept., the House and Senate in DC through AAI in DC. I was able to address concerns directly to some of our elected officials with a group of like-minded people. It's easy to get involved but it's not easy to hold your temper and unfortunately, someone in the crowd started shouting and we all look like goofs. It's better these days because people are realizing the power of the pen and a calm demeanor. I encourage everyone to write letters to their papers (it's being done a lot) and organizing groups of people to visit their representatives.
The saddest thing to me was recently when I visited my Congressman, he said that "your people are interested in being American." He didn't view others that came in to see him as American and interested in any common issues. I'm sure that doesn't happen when pro-Israeli's visit but they are probably much more polished on their approach as well as much more united and well connected. One-on-one doesn't work with elected officials, they need to see a unified front.
Saffiya
12/28 - bull......bullcookies.......blame it on religion, instead of Israeli oppression....this is why I call you a westerner. you must be........you probably just got back from Target and Chili's. .r o n
12/28 - Let me ask you this Saffiya, since Israeli's have 'no problems'
with being violence animals and can care less about those who see
their ugliness, in fact taking great pride in their ugliness,
promoting the ugliest and most murderous to the highest offices in
their government, why should Palestinians be concerned about what
they are being called while they are being murdered by the truely
murderous animals, the Zionists?
Just type "Israeli Terrorism" into your search engine, and there
will appear many references to the history of the terrorist
activities of the "Jewish State" that so many Jews are running to
become members of.
Mik
with being violence animals and can care less about those who see
their ugliness, in fact taking great pride in their ugliness,
promoting the ugliest and most murderous to the highest offices in
their government, why should Palestinians be concerned about what
they are being called while they are being murdered by the truely
murderous animals, the Zionists?
Just type "Israeli Terrorism" into your search engine, and there
will appear many references to the history of the terrorist
activities of the "Jewish State" that so many Jews are running to
become members of.
Mik
12/28 - Why don't you, Ron, six months in to this arena of politics, stop digging when you're in the hole?
I've been involved with this for 20 years almost, so you only make yourself look utterly foolish by spreading this wherever you think you will have an audience.
Yeah yeah, I know nothing. You know everything. Good luck.
Tanya
I've been involved with this for 20 years almost, so you only make yourself look utterly foolish by spreading this wherever you think you will have an audience.
Yeah yeah, I know nothing. You know everything. Good luck.
Tanya
12/28 - typical American housewife-style response..........typical American snubbery.......you don't know my experience....how can you assign me six months experience when you don't know my experience? I was locked in solitary confinement in an American jail for reading a Muslim book banned in Texas.......I became Muslim in prison in the 1990's. I did over four years in a Texas penitentiary. I don't call myself a Muslim today......personal reasons........but I do understand the issues.....in fact, you don't have to be Muslim to understand who the lawbreakers are in this instance. You sound terribly frustrated and one-dimensional........r o n On Dec 28, 2004, at 11:54 AM, Tanya C. Hsu wrote: > Why don't you, Ron, six months in to this arena of politics, stop > digging when you're in the hole? > > I've been involved with this for 20 years almost, so you only make > yourself look utterly foolish by spreading this wherever you think you > will have an audience. > > Yeah yeah, I know nothing. You know everything. Good luck. > > Tanya
12/28 - This is my point Mik.
Raise one issue that's taboo, and god help you....turn it around and put it to the other side.
You know, Lenni Brenner did a marvellous thing. In his 51 Documents he spoke openly and publicly about the Jews who helped Hitler in WWII. This was a subject that Jews knew about but hid. I mentioned the book to a Jewish “half Zionist” friend of mine, who never wants to talk about politics. After three glasses of wine she broke down crying and admitted that her father was one of them. He rounded up the Jews, his own people, and put them on the trains.
Her secret had come out. But when I mentioned it to another Jewish friend...oh no, that didn't happen. It could never happen, don't talk about it, you are anti-Semitic Tanya. Never speak of this again.
Okay, stick your heads in the sand. Fine by me.
Raise one issue that's taboo, and god help you....turn it around and put it to the other side.
You know, Lenni Brenner did a marvellous thing. In his 51 Documents he spoke openly and publicly about the Jews who helped Hitler in WWII. This was a subject that Jews knew about but hid. I mentioned the book to a Jewish “half Zionist” friend of mine, who never wants to talk about politics. After three glasses of wine she broke down crying and admitted that her father was one of them. He rounded up the Jews, his own people, and put them on the trains.
Her secret had come out. But when I mentioned it to another Jewish friend...oh no, that didn't happen. It could never happen, don't talk about it, you are anti-Semitic Tanya. Never speak of this again.
Okay, stick your heads in the sand. Fine by me.
Don't I? 12/28
How on earth do you possibly know?
Tanya
How on earth do you possibly know?
Tanya
Why is it amusing to you that people are tired of the bickering?
12/28 - Why do you assume that I or others don't spend our own money flying around the country, flying to the Middle East, talking every day to politicians, talking every other day to representatives in the region? I don't tell anyone here who I met with, who I spoke with, or where I'm going. Mention one thing and people caustically remark that I'm the sole representative of the PNA ha ha, so tell me....What is the point?
Why do you think that many of us don't work, hard core, daily, get paid for and not paid for both, for change? How do you know I don't put in 12 hours a day 7 days a week and have done for years in promoting trade, medical relief, travel assistance, diplomatic relations, etc.?
The nerve of some people is astounding.
Write one message here and one doesn't do anything?
It's insulting.
Tanya
12/28 - Why do you assume that I or others don't spend our own money flying around the country, flying to the Middle East, talking every day to politicians, talking every other day to representatives in the region? I don't tell anyone here who I met with, who I spoke with, or where I'm going. Mention one thing and people caustically remark that I'm the sole representative of the PNA ha ha, so tell me....What is the point?
Why do you think that many of us don't work, hard core, daily, get paid for and not paid for both, for change? How do you know I don't put in 12 hours a day 7 days a week and have done for years in promoting trade, medical relief, travel assistance, diplomatic relations, etc.?
The nerve of some people is astounding.
Write one message here and one doesn't do anything?
It's insulting.
Tanya
12/28 - It's got nothing to do with demonising. It has everything to do with stop yelling and screaming and blaming every one else for all, and I mean all, of Palestine's woes.
Some people there need to look in the mirror.
Bring up one tiny issue and all hell breaks lose. What does that say about people here?
Tanya
Some people there need to look in the mirror.
Bring up one tiny issue and all hell breaks lose. What does that say about people here?
Tanya
12/28 - How many so-called "militants" by Israeli standards were turned in or set-up to be assassinated by family, neighbors, etc? A sad situation indeed. However, if we are able to look at this and understand why it happens, we will be better able to strategize on how to end it--leadership on the ground there. I agree with Tanya, when we don't like looking at something we attack the messenger... not the message. I don't think Tanya wants to see the Palestinians wiped out or blames them for their problems, she's just discussing a point that we know exists on some levels. We tend to explain it away. We have to overcome our own demons before we overcome the ones out to get us. It's just a horrific time for Palestinians and it's hard to look at or hear what ills them because of the overwhelming force against them. It doesn't make one unhelpful or evil. It's an appropriate discussion for the list.
12/28 - Do we become like them... no way. I care about my people and their place in history and the world now. I want my children to see a free Palestine. I want them to visit their home there. Ours is a noble and I don't like it be tainted by violence and stereotypes that don't fit it. That's my opinion. I see your point, but I don't agree. I would not be proud of a history like the Israeli's. Saffiya
12/28 - Tanya knows NOT of the personal feelings of oppression and anger at
> having your family members killed by Israeli occupying forces, or
> knowing you can never return to your homeland, or knowing that the
> incredibly difficult life on the ground in Palestine is not going to
> change in their lifetimes;
Do you?
> having your family members killed by Israeli occupying forces, or
> knowing you can never return to your homeland, or knowing that the
> incredibly difficult life on the ground in Palestine is not going to
> change in their lifetimes;
Do you?
12/28 - zionist dribble............clearly transparent............r o n
12/28 - I hate to say this but I have heard some people say the same thing... they'd send their children to die. They say it, I believe, out of frustration....Those people are the exception... not the rule and maybe what was said or videoed was taken out of context--maybe not. The whole situation was brought about by the brutal occupation in my opinion. Also, religion has a lot to do with it too. Palestine is not Islamic only and I think those that have done a lot of the violence against innocents are Muslims on a mission from God. When in fact it is so against Islam to do such a thing to oneself and others.
100% correct Saffiya. Exactly.
Tanya
100% correct Saffiya. Exactly.
Tanya
Sad 12/28
12/28 - I remember when Laura Bush said that she doesn't feel sorry for Palestinian mothers that send their children to die, but I wonder how she feels about her husband sending other's mother's children to die in Iraq because he's on a mission from God fighting against "evil," armed with nothing but a bunch of lies. It makes me also wonder why the world singles out Muslims as fanatics, especially Palestinians who have been subjected to nothing but humiliation and brutality. Marlene
12/28 - as a non-palestinian and a sharp observer from the side lines. I noticed many non-palestinians better swerving palestine than some palestinians themselves. I will use name but both cases are found on this list. Horst
12/28 - There is absolutely no doubt that the violence of the past decade has undermined and harmed the Palestinian cause ... In Feb. 2004, settler Baruch Goldstein murdered 29 Muslims at prayer in al-Khalil (Hebron) ... the world was outraged at the attack and Israel was under pressure ... and then six weeks later, Hamas launched its own attack in response, a suicide bombing at a civilian target What Hamas did was "one-up" Goldstein ... they overshadowned the viciousness of his killing with the viciousness of their own ... More importantly, in my opinion, Hamas is an organization that has never been elected to represent anyone, let alone the Palestinians ... it makes its own decisions not for the good of the Palestinians for for the good of its own message, which is a religious message that is as anti-Christian as it is anti-Muslim ... Islam does not preach violence and neither does Christianity ... but both allow you to defend yourself when your life is directly threatened ... neither allows anyone to avenge anything, to seek revenge or to be driven by vengeance ... Those who kill in the name of any religion or murderers not martyrs. The problem is an issue of relativity ... Israel's Likud government is a government of terrorists and murderers mostly ... Hamas is an organization of terrorists and murderers, mostly. The Likud is clever about how it kills ... Hamas is not. It doesn't care about public opinion, Israel does. Yet, public opinion inn the world: created Israel undermined the Palestinians enslaves the Arab and Muslim worlds continues to deny Palestinian rights Violence has gotten us nothing except more suffering. Palestine is being slowly erased by the extremists in Israel (and I do not view Israelis as bad people at all ... I view politics as good or bad, leaders as good or bad, and view the public often as victims). You can only use violence so far to achieve goals: either you use it to win a conflict, or you use it to reposition yourself in a broader world context (Sun Tzu) ... you never use violence unless it produces a specific end result that benefits you. Under the Palestinian Revolution, violence was used to reinforce the Palestinian peoples' will to stand up to Israel rather than waiting for the Arab tyrants to do anything, and to redefine the Palestinian cause. We do exist. We do have rights. We cannot be ignored. Since we could not win a war with Israel, violence had reached its strategic maximum value. The next logical move was the move Arafat made in 1988 to enter into negotiations with Israel, which has won nearly every war it has fought right off the bat ... it can't be defeated militarily and it exists in conflict and is strongest in conflict ... it is weakest when it is cast as the aggressor ... as long as Hamas one-ups Israel with a form of violence that is "viewed by the world" as more immoral and more ghastly than anything else, suicide bombings -- and I agree with that assessment -- the pressure is off Israel ... So, I guess I should thank the suicide bombers and the murderers who sent these young people to kill themselves in order to kill innocent Israeli civilians who have never done anything to hurt Palestinians except be Jewish or Israeli, for helping Israel to build all those settlements the world now says Israel can keep ... Or, hasn't anyone been noticing what's been happening while we debate? Ray Hanania
12/28 - Sherri is a farsi name , persian name , famous by the 1001 nights tales. but who is Raja ??? Horst
12/28 - I don't think it's "the world" that's letting Israel
keep it's settlements as much as it's Ariel Sharon's sock
puppet, George Bush and the cadre of Zionist supporting Congressmen
who are doing it. If it wasn't for the US veto power at the UN,
I'm sure Israel would be back inside it's 1967 borders by now.
Yet US foreign aide to many has bought their silence, and in being
silent, it has lead to Israel being allowed to go it's merry way.
Hopefully, that will not be forever. Not the way it is going now.
Even the Jewish prophets speak out against what the Zionists are
doing, and God shall not be mocked.
Mik
keep it's settlements as much as it's Ariel Sharon's sock
puppet, George Bush and the cadre of Zionist supporting Congressmen
who are doing it. If it wasn't for the US veto power at the UN,
I'm sure Israel would be back inside it's 1967 borders by now.
Yet US foreign aide to many has bought their silence, and in being
silent, it has lead to Israel being allowed to go it's merry way.
Hopefully, that will not be forever. Not the way it is going now.
Even the Jewish prophets speak out against what the Zionists are
doing, and God shall not be mocked.
Mik
12/29 -On Friday, December 17 th , I posted on this list and others, the Hanan Ashrawi interview that was carried in the Dec. 17 th issue of the Israeli paper, Haaretz. At that time, I thought that people on this list as well as other lists would be interested to read the thoughts of Ashrawi and her comments.
Since then, I have seen the discussion on this list go from discussing this piece, to arguing against the Right of Return, to blaming and accusing the Palestinian leadership and Arafat for conspiring to prevent people from getting urgently needed medical treatment, to discussing suicide bombings and morality, to blaming Palestinian mothers and fathers for “breeding suicide bombers”…
In 11 days, we managed to inject many things that really had no thread whatsoever in my original posting of the Ashrawi interview. I posted the very same interview on other lists, BUT they didn't elicit the same byproducts that we ended up with!
I guess, I would have not been very active in this discussion ( I rarely get caught up in these things) if it were not for Tanya's post about medical treatment which accused the PA (Palestinian Authority) with preventing people from getting the medical help they needed!
The reason I came out swinging on this issue is because her baseless accusations and the topic hit VERY close to home…
In 2002, during Eid Aludha prayers at the Beit Hanina Mosque, my 65 years old uncle (although an American citizen, he moved back home in 1997) collapsed in the Mosque. My brother and other family members called for an Israeli Ambulance (since he lived in Beit Hanina, he was under direct Israeli control and jurisdiction because Beit Hanina is considered part of Jerusalem ). The Israeli ambulance REFUSED to come to the mosque to get him. The Israelis had erected a temporary checkpoint on the main road that connected Beit Hanina and Jerusalem for the Eid celebrations and to prevent people from crossing to the Old City and praying at Al-Aqsa.
Instead my brother and my cousins were instructed to take him to the nearest checkpoint in their own car and there, the Israeli ambulance would pick him up. After arriving at the checkpoint, they were held up for an additional 15 PRECIOUS minutes before they were allowed them to take him to the waiting Israeli ambulance, which was only about 20 meters away. In the meantime, he slipped in to a coma, which he never woke up from! The Israeli doctors who treated him at Haddassa kept asking why they had waited so long to get him emergency medical care! They told my mother, that her brother would have survived if in fact, they were able to treat him earlier or if he had the urgent attention that he needed when he fell…
After arriving at the hospital, the Israeli authorities then made my brother and cousins come up with 10,000 Shekels (about $2300) as up front payment for his treatment and made them sign papers stating that they would be responsible for all medical treatment he receives. He was in Hadassa for about 9 days before he died. He never did awake from his coma…
NOW, my 87 years old father in law is sick and needs an emergency procedure that they could not perform in Ramallah. After 2 weeks of delays and waiting, my sister in-laws were finally able to “smuggle him” into Jerusalem where he will be undergoing an operation on Thursday. The doctors have stated that he will have a 50/50 chance of survival because of the delay…Some of you who have been reading my writings know all about my father in-law. I posted a piece about him a while back titled “Hussein from Lifta”…
If my father in-law would have been caught in the car of his grandson, his grandson would have been fined and his car would have been confiscated for 30 days for the “offense” of transporting a person with a West Bank ID card in his “ Jerusalem licensed” car. It doesn't matter if he was transporting his mother, father, brother, or a total stranger; the fine would have been the same…
I did not write this to elicit anyone's sympathy, and to be frank, I really do not need or want it! I just thought that people on this list, might at least know where I was coming from…
Mike
12/29 - I think the major problem is that the focus has shifted from where it should be. Denial of medical care is well-documented and going back years before there was ever a suicide bombing (1994), as you can see from Physicians for Human Rights' second report below. The first report from PHR deals with the brutalities inflicted on the Palestinians for resisting the occupation with civil disturbances for which it was reported that Israeli soldiers and police participated in an" uncontrolled epidemic of violence" in the West Bank and Gaza Strip. Both reports can be ordered if anyone is interested. Marlene
Israel and occupied territories
The Casualties of Conflict: Medical Care and Human Rights in the West Bank and Gaza Strip
PHR was the first human rights group to enter Israel shortly after the intifada began. In early 1988, a PHR delegation visited hospitals, blood banks, clinics, and homes in Jerusalem, the West Bank, and the Gaza Strip to investigate the medical consequences of civil disturbances and police and military actions. These actions included systematic beatings and use of high-velocity live ammunition, tear gas, and rubber bullets. The team examined and interviewed 103 patients, most of whom had been wounded within the preceding 24 hours and had similar wound patterns. This landmark report details the team's medical findings and concludes that Israeli soldiers and police participated in an uncontrolled epidemic of violence in the West Bank and Gaza Strip.
"A dramatic survey of the physical and psychological damage deliberately inflicted on thousands of Palestinians."
The Washington Post
The Washington Post
March 30, 1988, 46 pages $6.00 CODE: ISRCOFC
Human Rights on Hold: A Report on Emergency Measures and Access to Health Care in the Occupied Territories 1990—1992
Since the beginning of the Palestinian intifada in December 1987, Israeli soldiers and security personnel have used excessive force, including beatings, indiscriminate shootings, and inappropriate use of toxic gas, against the nearly two million Palestinians who live in the West Bank and Gaza Strip. They have also curtailed access to health care by restricting the movement of health personnel, closing pharmacies and clinics, blocking ambulances, obstructing access to medical care for critically-ill patients, and forcibly entering medical facilities. PHR conducted two studies — one in July 1990 of 24 Palestinian families in refugee camps and villages, and one in May 1991 of 44 families — to survey the cumulative effects of these abuses. The report concludes by calling on the Israeli government to establish and implement clear policies of restraint on the use of force and to lift restrictions on health personnel and health institutions in the West Bank and Gaza.
June 1993, 91 pages ISBN 1-879707-09-8, $10.00 CODE: ISRHRO
12/29 - You are correct. I feel that the Moderators should establish just 5 objectives for this list to follow and if the postings do not conform to the objectives the posts should not be published. The recent article by the BBC that was posted regarding the Cold War has nothing to do with Palestine. As we know, the Zionist state in the Middle East is the only State that has WMDs. This should continue to be our focus in addition to the daily hardships of the Palestinian people, their absolute right to return to the 1967 and the 1948 borders.
12/29 - Tanya, I use the word "demonization" because it reflects what the media usually reports on the Palestinians and needs to be vigorously countered by placing the focus where it belongs. No, Palestinians are not perfect, but it is a lot to even function rationally when anyone would be subjected to such daily systematic violence, abuse and humiliation. I've been watching the news and horrible destruction and loss of lives caused by the Tsunami, an uncontrollable force of nature, but I could not help thinking about the Palestinians who have lost their homes by human hands, and the indifference to it. Marlene
12/29 - Mike, I thought you were coming from a fine place all along.
I heard some justifiably righteous indignation, and that's fine.
I've seen far too many articles about the jackels who claim to be
Jews and Israeli's not only allowing pregnant mothers to die giving
birth at these 'checkpoints' but tormenting them verbally while they
are dying in the process of giving birth.
I wish your father in law well as he faces surgery. May he come thru
it fine!!!
Mik
I heard some justifiably righteous indignation, and that's fine.
I've seen far too many articles about the jackels who claim to be
Jews and Israeli's not only allowing pregnant mothers to die giving
birth at these 'checkpoints' but tormenting them verbally while they
are dying in the process of giving birth.
I wish your father in law well as he faces surgery. May he come thru
it fine!!!
Mik
12/29 - ron harold has stated
a) palestinians are not on the wrong side of th law, and have not
volated the law. even those you refer to as "suicide bombers" are not
illegal.
b) every single solitary act of violence by palestinains is very much
lawful.
ron harold claims that the geneva convention allows these acts of
violence.
obviously he has not read this document.
while giving those under occupation the right to retaliate it also
imposes some restaints on those acts.
among them being no acts on those who are not involved in th4e
occuaption. as far as i know children are not under any circumstance
involved actively in any occupation.
so therefore the acts of violence against isreali children do indeed
violate the 4th geneva convention as well as the convention on the
rights of the child.
ron harolds remarks deliberately and with foresight deny israeli
children of their human rights. and yet not one post has contradicted
him on this point. so everyone who posted after these remarks and the
moderators who knew of these remarks also beleive that israeli
children have no human rights.
12/29 - I'm sorry, you're wrong. .......btw, no one wants to see Israeli or Palestinian children die. The Geneva Conventions clearly states the occupied may evict the occupiers ".......by any means necessary." I remind you Israel initiated war on the Palestinians with their unlawful occupation of Palestine - Israel kept war on Palestine, unlawfully occupying Palestine for over 36 years now, killing Palestinians with American weapons; and 36 years of war has been the result, with children dying on both sides......it's war, it's horrible, it's terrible, but that is what wars have always been. You're howling at the death of Israeli children, but forget this criminal Israeli occupation has killed more Palestinian children than Israeli children - each child is important, so when you cry for Israeli children, cry for the Palestinian children too. I see you're failing to adequately represent this issue: Why aren't you calling for Israel to comply with the 65 U.N. resolutions Israel has been in violation of for 36 years now? Why don't you recognize the need for Israel to comply with the U.N. resolutions ordering Israel out of Palestine? Wouldn't you think the burglar Israel should at least leave the home they broke into? Wouldn't that be the right thing to do? Wouldn't that be a good start? contextually yours, .r o n
a) palestinians are not on the wrong side of th law, and have not
volated the law. even those you refer to as "suicide bombers" are not
illegal.
b) every single solitary act of violence by palestinains is very much
lawful.
ron harold claims that the geneva convention allows these acts of
violence.
obviously he has not read this document.
while giving those under occupation the right to retaliate it also
imposes some restaints on those acts.
among them being no acts on those who are not involved in th4e
occuaption. as far as i know children are not under any circumstance
involved actively in any occupation.
so therefore the acts of violence against isreali children do indeed
violate the 4th geneva convention as well as the convention on the
rights of the child.
ron harolds remarks deliberately and with foresight deny israeli
children of their human rights. and yet not one post has contradicted
him on this point. so everyone who posted after these remarks and the
moderators who knew of these remarks also beleive that israeli
children have no human rights.
12/29 - I'm sorry, you're wrong. .......btw, no one wants to see Israeli or Palestinian children die. The Geneva Conventions clearly states the occupied may evict the occupiers ".......by any means necessary." I remind you Israel initiated war on the Palestinians with their unlawful occupation of Palestine - Israel kept war on Palestine, unlawfully occupying Palestine for over 36 years now, killing Palestinians with American weapons; and 36 years of war has been the result, with children dying on both sides......it's war, it's horrible, it's terrible, but that is what wars have always been. You're howling at the death of Israeli children, but forget this criminal Israeli occupation has killed more Palestinian children than Israeli children - each child is important, so when you cry for Israeli children, cry for the Palestinian children too. I see you're failing to adequately represent this issue: Why aren't you calling for Israel to comply with the 65 U.N. resolutions Israel has been in violation of for 36 years now? Why don't you recognize the need for Israel to comply with the U.N. resolutions ordering Israel out of Palestine? Wouldn't you think the burglar Israel should at least leave the home they broke into? Wouldn't that be the right thing to do? Wouldn't that be a good start? contextually yours, .r o n
12/30.....you don't see Israeli suicide bombers, because Israel has endless American-made weapons to kill with. Here's something for you to contemplate: If Israel didn't have the massive forces and weaponry Israel uses on Palestinians, if Israel didn't have an Air Force, a Navy, Special Forces, M1-A1 Abram tanks, Apache helicopters, nuclear bombs, cruise missiles, Patriot batterys, armored personnel carriers, and one of the world's best-trained forces, would Israeli citizens be lining up to commit suicide bombings on Palestinians? No, they wouldn't. Why? Because Israelis are more humane than Palestinians? No, because Israelis are not living under the incredible (and apparently unimaginable) personal oppression Palestinians have hopelessly lived under, during this 36-year long Israeli occupation of Palestine. Israelis have it too good in their own land to worry about becoming a suicide bomber for their country - they have paid professionals armed with massive American weaponry to do that. I know for me, it's hard to imagine the lifelong, generational oppression Palestinians have endured for decades now. I can't imagine being so despondent over my life and my family's life that I would send my own son to die for my country. It reminds me of Americans sending their own kids to die in Iraq. Americans are willing to send their kids to die, for their cause. Israelis send their kids to die for their cause. But don't let Palestinians send their kids to die for their cause, lest they be called subhuman. Who's committing suicide for their country? I told my friend that if her son joins the Army, that would be like committing suicide, considering how bad Bush and Cheney need fresh, warm bodies for their operations in Iraq. .r o n dallas, texas
12.30 - you are right ron. while nobody likes to see a child injured, or
even sick, if an isreali child gets hurt it is becuse their parents
who allow them to be placed in danger, living on stolen lands in
which the rightful owner wants returned. the isreali parents might
as well let their children play on the highway.
also mr. fearplay, your comments about the moderators on this list
are unfounded and inapropriate. any violence directed towards any
child is absolutley condemed on this list.
even sick, if an isreali child gets hurt it is becuse their parents
who allow them to be placed in danger, living on stolen lands in
which the rightful owner wants returned. the isreali parents might
as well let their children play on the highway.
also mr. fearplay, your comments about the moderators on this list
are unfounded and inapropriate. any violence directed towards any
child is absolutley condemed on this list.
12/30 - I think one of the great problems is that while Palestinians are being taught what the rule of law is, the fact remains that there is no rule of law that applies to the Palestinians that anyone is abiding by, either under the Fourth Geneva Convention or under the Universal Declaration of Human Rights, although Israel is a member of the international community. The only laws that exists are discriminatory laws that apply to Palestinians,and a separate law to illegal Israeli settlers, even though they live in the same territory. The fact is also that Palestinian children are denied any rights from the moment they enter this world, and sometimes one can say while they're still in utero because their mothers are oftentimes denied medical treatment which has led to some of their deaths. Palestinians are an unprotected people. They are not even protected from "civilian" settlers who have plenty of arms and have long engaged in violence and property damage against the Palestinian population while the army simply looks, if they're not busy committing their own violence.
12/30 - ron harold has twice made the statement in his posts that to kill
israeli chldren do not violate international human rights law.
not one person on this list or any of the moderators have siad that
this is wrong.
in other words israeli children do not have human rights and are
therefore not human.
as far as i am personaly concerned it is a racist statement . and
everybody and i do mean everybody agrees with it.
as to why do they do i do not know.
as to the wider issues that ron harold has in his own unique way
pointed out that i did not in any way make mention off.
i am well aware of the dire situation in the middle east. i have been
following the conflict in great detail since 2000. so do not preach
to me. your understanding of the 4th geneva convention is nill.
it clearly states that those who are not taking in any part in the
violence is not to be targetted. those who do so are in violation of
the 4th geneva convention.
i am agains the killing of children. all the children.
i want the violence to stop. all the violence.
i want peace for each and every country in the middle east.
the statement in his posts that to kill
israeli chldren do not violate international human rights law.
not one person on this list or any of the moderators have siad that
this is wrong.
in other words israeli children do not have human rights and are
therefore not human.
as far as i am personaly concerned it is a racist statement . and
everybody and i do mean everybody agrees with it.
as to why do they do i do not know.
as to the wider issues that ron harold has in his own unique way
pointed out that i did not in any way make mention off.
i am well aware of the dire situation in the middle east. i have been
following the conflict in great detail since 2000. so do not preach
to me. your understanding of the 4th geneva convention is nill.
it clearly states that those who are not taking in any part in the
violence is not to be targetted. those who do so are in violation of
the 4th geneva convention.
i am agains the killing of children. all the children.
i want the violence to stop. all the violence.
i want peace for each and every country in the middle east.
israeli chldren do not violate international human rights law.
not one person on this list or any of the moderators have siad that
this is wrong.
in other words israeli children do not have human rights and are
therefore not human.
as far as i am personaly concerned it is a racist statement . and
everybody and i do mean everybody agrees with it.
as to why do they do i do not know.
as to the wider issues that ron harold has in his own unique way
pointed out that i did not in any way make mention off.
i am well aware of the dire situation in the middle east. i have been
following the conflict in great detail since 2000. so do not preach
to me. your understanding of the 4th geneva convention is nill.
it clearly states that those who are not taking in any part in the
violence is not to be targetted. those who do so are in violation of
the 4th geneva convention.
i am agains the killing of children. all the children.
i want the violence to stop. all the violence.
i want peace for each and every country in the middle east.
the statement in his posts that to kill
israeli chldren do not violate international human rights law.
not one person on this list or any of the moderators have siad that
this is wrong.
in other words israeli children do not have human rights and are
therefore not human.
as far as i am personaly concerned it is a racist statement . and
everybody and i do mean everybody agrees with it.
as to why do they do i do not know.
as to the wider issues that ron harold has in his own unique way
pointed out that i did not in any way make mention off.
i am well aware of the dire situation in the middle east. i have been
following the conflict in great detail since 2000. so do not preach
to me. your understanding of the 4th geneva convention is nill.
it clearly states that those who are not taking in any part in the
violence is not to be targetted. those who do so are in violation of
the 4th geneva convention.
i am agains the killing of children. all the children.
i want the violence to stop. all the violence.
i want peace for each and every country in the middle east.
12/30 It is wrong that Children or humans die in any conflict. Although it is
working, it is inevitable that the children of the colonialist aggressors
may be targeted in retaliation for the occupation of a whole country and the
killing of many of its people--including children in numbers that are much
higher than the casualties on the Israelis side.
Let us keep things in perspective. Not doing so is not intellectually
honest.
Sami
working, it is inevitable that the children of the colonialist aggressors
may be targeted in retaliation for the occupation of a whole country and the
killing of many of its people--including children in numbers that are much
higher than the casualties on the Israelis side.
Let us keep things in perspective. Not doing so is not intellectually
honest.
Sami
12/30 I asked you a legitimate question and all you can do instead is try to play on our emotions.......typical..... ..pro-Zionist propaganda........you shouldn't even open your mouth about the law, considering your terrorist nation Israel is the criminal nation deluxe model. Your Israeli government is responsible for the deaths of those Israeli children - why? how? Because your Israeli government decided long ago, Israel's continued illegal occupation and oppression of Palestine and Palestinians is more important than the safety of their own children. In other words, Israel has done nothing to truly reduce the motivation of the suicide bomber. Your Israeli government owes a duty to their own children to protect them - and that means not breaking the law in severely and grossly violating the rights of your next-door neighbor. Since your government broke into the house of Palestine, why would you be surprised or cry foul when Palestinians fight back the burglars Israel? Because Israeli children are killed? If you bring your kids with you to a gunfight YOU STARTED, and your kids get killed........who's fault is that? Yours, that's who. You don't see it in that perspective - you speak from the point of view Israel has no culpability in the deaths of their own children. Israeli children didn't invade Palestine, but their Israeli government is responsible for their little deaths. sincerely, r o n
12/30 - Everytime I hear an American broadcaster or citizen say this, it ticks
me off:
"If the Palestinians would just stop the suicide bombings and attacks,
then maybe a responsible Palestinian leader can get back to the
negotiating table and negotiate."
That kind of western/zionist rhetoric makes me long for Arafat's
proclamations.
.......negotiate? Negotiate what? Why should the homeowner negotiate
with the burglar who has broke into his home and terrorized the
homeowner?
There's nothing for Palestinians to negotiate.
There's only the need for Israel to comply with the law.
There's your Peace Plan - follow the law, Israel!
.r o n
me off:
"If the Palestinians would just stop the suicide bombings and attacks,
then maybe a responsible Palestinian leader can get back to the
negotiating table and negotiate."
That kind of western/zionist rhetoric makes me long for Arafat's
proclamations.
.......negotiate? Negotiate what? Why should the homeowner negotiate
with the burglar who has broke into his home and terrorized the
homeowner?
There's nothing for Palestinians to negotiate.
There's only the need for Israel to comply with the law.
There's your Peace Plan - follow the law, Israel!
.r o n
12/31 -Your statement accusing Ron of "racist" remarks is totally misplaced here, and would apply to any other members of this forum who agree with him. Notwithstanding the law and how anyone wishes to interpret it, the actions of the Palestinians are against their brutal "occupiers," and not because anyone is singling out "Israelis" in particular, which means that the occupiers could be anyone. That is exactly what Ron is saying. I can only assume if you think this is racist, then you would have no choice but to concede that Israel's occupation which singles out the Palestinian identity for the worst form of collective humiliation, abuse and violence irrespective of whether there is any wrongdoing, which is applied through a dual set of laws, one for Israeli citizens and one for Palestinians residing in the same territory is indeed racist! Y ou would have to also concede that Israel's treatment and laws, or proposed laws that have actually come before the Knesset against its its own Palestinian Arab citizens, are also racist. Let's keep the "racism" card where it appropriately belongs. . Marlene
12/31 - Left out a very important word here. The actions of the Palestinians are not only against their "occupiers," but also against their " colonizer s", which makes it unlike other occupations, such as the German occupation of France or the British occupation of Palestine, whereas German and/or British subjects were not being brought into those countries to establish communities at the expense of the indigenous population by stealing their lands and destroying their homes based entirely on their ethnic or national identity. Marlene.
12/31 - Against my better judgment, I will add something here (After all the debacle with Tanya and the brouhaha that ensued whereby we were AGAIN distracted and divided I had decided to stop commenting on much of what is said on this list) …
Last year, I was one of the participants in a dialogue group that included American Jews/Zionists, Israeli Jews/Zionists, Palestinians, and Americans. We had former Israeli soldiers (turned peaceniks) as well as some very hard line Zionists among the Jews present.
When I brought up the issue of the Occupation and settlements, asking them about “the importance” of these settlements, the hard line American Zionist and his Israeli counterpart responded that they were “VITAL TO THE SECURITY OF THE STATE OF ISRAEL”! When I then inquired them to explain this to me, they responded that the settlements were MUCH more than just a place for Jews to live; they were in fact “THE FIRST LINE OF DEFENSE FOR THE STATE OF ISRAEL AGAINST THE ARABS”!
This exchange was brought about after the Zionist wanted us the Palestinians to “condemn, here and now the terrorist operation in the Hebron area settlement whereby a Palestinian fighter infiltrated a settlement and killed a Jewish family, including 2 children”…
After hearing their response to my question about settlements, I then asked them if indeed the settlements were “Israel's front line defenses against the Arab ”, then they would have to be categorized as military targets and NOT civilian. After all, the each settlement comes with its own armory and paramilitary and military guards and militia!
The waffled for a bit, but when I pressed the issue for them to either categorize the settlements as either ‘military bases” or ‘civilian population centers” (they have a problem with this because it goes against the Geneva Convention rules about moving your own civilian population into occupied territories), they relented and said that the settlements would be best described as “military”…
After hearing this, I pounced on them, accusing the Jewish settlers of “child cruelty” in the worst degree for moving their children to a war zone and then have them live in a “military area” thus exposing them to the inherent dangers of a war Zone…
Just my 2 “iqroosh” (the old Palestinian currency) worth… (As opposed to someone else's Shekels)
Mike
12/31 - I could add also that the military does not control the settlers nor their well-documented violence, but the settlers control the military. Just my masari's (money) worth. Marlene
Jan 2, 2005 - to introduce my self
i am michael . i live in australia. i have absolutely no ties with
israel or any jewish groups.
as stated i am against the violence.
i am against the deaths of ALL the children
i am against the wall.
i am for human rights being upheld for everyone.
i am currently going through the documents at the un web site.
very interesting reading . i highly recommend it.
i have been thrown off a pro-israeli site for arguing aginst the
murder of palestinian children.
i have been thrown of a pro-palestinian site for arguing against the
murder of israeli children.
but enough about me.
ron harold has done what other speakers have done. without knowing
one thing about and is against my statement that israeli children are
protected by human rights law he procedes to label me a pro-zionist.
also a jew who supports the israeli state/government by using such
phrases as "your terrorist nation" and "your isreali governement"
and calls the statement that israeli children are protected by human
rights lws/legislation as "pro-zionist propganda"
now the rest of the group are using the tired ideologoy that the
suicide bombers, who they hate and are against, are justified to
attack israeli children.
there is not one thing that justifies any attack against any child.
no doubt ron harold will call this "pro-zionist propaganda" as well.
according to marlene
israeli children are occupiers. more information.
i occupation is racist. i am against and have emailed sharon to stop
occupation and pull out of west bank and gaza strip.
she also states that there are laws passed to be enacted against the
arab population and she calls them racist. i am against racism
regardless. these racist laws should be replaced by non-racist laws.
the human rights committee of the un have been investigating israel
and these laws among other things. go and read the documents on the
un Suicide and Morality, People's Opinions: An ongoing dialogue on suicide bombings and morality. I do not edit the letters. The words in bold are the beginning of a different persons dialogue. This dialogue became huge, I add new diagloues as they come in at the bottom so new readers can follow the events. I add to this daily since December 15th, 2004. This would make a good study!
i am michael . i live in australia. i have absolutely no ties with
israel or any jewish groups.
as stated i am against the violence.
i am against the deaths of ALL the children
i am against the wall.
i am for human rights being upheld for everyone.
i am currently going through the documents at the un web site.
very interesting reading . i highly recommend it.
i have been thrown off a pro-israeli site for arguing aginst the
murder of palestinian children.
i have been thrown of a pro-palestinian site for arguing against the
murder of israeli children.
but enough about me.
ron harold has done what other speakers have done. without knowing
one thing about and is against my statement that israeli children are
protected by human rights law he procedes to label me a pro-zionist.
also a jew who supports the israeli state/government by using such
phrases as "your terrorist nation" and "your isreali governement"
and calls the statement that israeli children are protected by human
rights lws/legislation as "pro-zionist propganda"
now the rest of the group are using the tired ideologoy that the
suicide bombers, who they hate and are against, are justified to
attack israeli children.
there is not one thing that justifies any attack against any child.
no doubt ron harold will call this "pro-zionist propaganda" as well.
according to marlene
israeli children are occupiers. more information.
i occupation is racist. i am against and have emailed sharon to stop
occupation and pull out of west bank and gaza strip.
she also states that there are laws passed to be enacted against the
arab population and she calls them racist. i am against racism
regardless. these racist laws should be replaced by non-racist laws.
the human rights committee of the un have been investigating israel
and these laws among other things. go and read the documents on the
un Suicide and Morality, People's Opinions: An ongoing dialogue on suicide bombings and morality. I do not edit the letters. The words in bold are the beginning of a different persons dialogue. This dialogue became huge, I add new diagloues as they come in at the bottom so new readers can follow the events. I add to this daily since December 15th, 2004. This would make a good study!
let it direct your passion with reason, that your passion may live through its own daily resurrection, and like the phoenix rise above its own ashes. ~Khalil Gibran
If Palestinians were Killed by Suicide Bombers?
I am posting an old article as I read the posts on suicide bombings and morality. I condemn the use of suicide bombimgs but not for reasons of "morality." I just don't want more of our kids to die because they are the future of our society. Is it wrong that innocent Israelis die? You bet! But I would be lying if I said I get as emotional as when I hear of Palestinian innocents dying. I suspect that if people want suicide bombings to end, we're going to have to seek it in a way that elevates Palestinian life and wanting to see our youth live. Talking about the immorality of the loss of Israeli life while they bulldoze homes, kill our youth, and are generally content with occupying our people until violence visited them on their own doorsteps is not going to fly with too many people. Quite simply, we have to love our own people more than we hate them or their stupid and barbaric policies.
by Sherri Muzher | Paeline Chronicle | 19/3/2004 "Is that the problem? Palestinians are not being killed by suicide bombings and therefore their deaths are not going to warrant reactions of horror? .."
By SHERRI MUZHER
I just finished reading a report about the Israeli killing of 32 Palestinians the week of March 7, 2004 .
Ten of them were children and two were women. There was no breaking news or the usual presidential condemnation that often accommodates suicide bombings.
Is that the problem? Palestinians are not being killed by suicide bombings and therefore their deaths are not going to warrant reactions of horror?
It's a question that crosses my mind often when I hear about the repulsion against those who strap bombs. I don't support suicide bombings but I certainly don't distinguish between the deaths of innocents and more importantly, how the killings take place.
I am often asked if I condemn suicide bombings when a discussion hits on the Middle East conflict. Do Israeli-Americans get asked if they condemn occupation, I wonder? Anyhow, I usually ask “If Israelis were killed by military-style ambushes and Palestinians didn't strap bombs on themselves, would you find the deaths more tolerable?”
Silence usually follows.
Call me a human rights activist but results rather than methods anger me. What difference does it make how people are killed? Innocents are being killed on both the Palestinian and Israeli sides.
Specific to the Palestinians, nearly 3,000 have been killed since the uprising for freedom began in September, 2000 – a third of them, children. In the overwhelming majority of cases, Palestinians are killed in non-combative situations, just like Israeli civilians on buses are.
But dead Palestinian innocents are not afforded the dramatic media coverage that Israelis get. No breathless interviews; pictures of carnage; interviews with witnesses and government officials; and/or the traditional condemnation by President George Bush.
Perhaps most disheartening about the media coverage is the implication that the Palestinian-Israeli conflict is calm unless there is a suicide bombing. Try telling that to the Palestinian family of three-year-old Dina Iesa who went into shock and later died after hearing Israel shelling in her neighborhood.
But she didn't die in a suicide bombing. In fact, the 3,000 Palestinians didn't die by suicide bombings. None of them could go outside for a breath of fresh air without permission from the Israeli Defense Force, but hey, they didn't die by soldiers strapping bombs. That's all that matters, right?
What a fickle world we live in when people ignore the root causes of hatred and killing but just want to focus on whether a killer strapped a bomb on him/herself. I guess Palestinians killed by F16 bombings died with smiles on their faces.
Killing is killing !!! and killing innocents is simply"killing innocents". The difference lies in the identity of the killer: is he an occupier ?? or an occupied ?? Making no difference is erroneous , if not naively-simplistic. Merry Christmas Horst Gottwald Muenchen BRD
I don't disagree with the point above. I think the Israeli left (in Israel) has collapsed and is replaced by a phoniness ... Israelis who talk of peace but never admit any fault of their own. It's always the Palestinians who are bad and doing bad things, and they NEVER acknowledge the viciousness of their own violence and state terrorism by the Sharon Government. Still, as a longtime believer in the power of non-violence, I believe that strengthening the moral character of a people gives the oppressed more fortitude and stamina to survive even the most brutal of oppressions. And Israel 's occupation has never been more vicious, brutal and immoral. Imagine the arrogance of a people who believe that they can build a wall around a people to prevent justice or being forced to acknowledge their guilt in causing the conflict and current violence. My issue is not so much to make the Israelis feel good, but to strengthen the moral high ground of the Palestinians and build world support among the nations where it matters most ... Let's face it, we often settle for crumbs in our leadership, our spokespeople, and in our successes. Europe , for example, is worthless, despite their valiant support of our cause. Palestinians need to win back the support of the American public. That's a whole, another issue for later discussion :) But I respect your opinion. Just disagree ..
it is interesting to note that Israelis rarely spoke out against leaving the Occupied Territories and never cared about the suffering of Palestinians until violence visited them on their doorsteps. Who is rewarding violence? Israelis generally make it extremely difficult for those of us who support Satyagraha to do so.
I and the public know
what all schoolchildren learn
those to whom evil is done
do evil in return.
W. H. Auden
US (English-born) critic & poet (1907 - 1973)
My point is that if one is to convince the average Palestinian Joe not to believe in suicide bombings or armed struggle, it needs to be done in a way that talks about loving our own people more and not wanting to lose more of our youth. Preaching morality to the demoralized is not going to fly. We need to do a better job as a people speaking in terms that the layperson understands. BTW, it is interesting to note that Israelis rarely spoke out against leaving the Occupied Territories and never cared about the suffering of Palestinians until violence visited them on their doorsteps. Who is rewarding violence? Israelis generally make it extremely difficult for those of us who support Satyagraha to do so. Ray, I agree with you on a lot of things but while we agree that suicide bombings are wrong, we completely disagree on how to sell the message in a way that will resonate with Palestinians on the street. I just find it difficult to believe that preaching morality to those who cannot even go out for a breath of fresh air without permission from the IDF are going to find your PR strategy convincing. Maybe I'm wrong, but I hear far too much justifiable rage from Palestinians to see it that way. Now, if you talk about saving the youth of our future and loving our people, people are less likely to roll their eyes. Food for thought . . .
If I were tying to make a point on suicide bombings that might be effective, I would use the argument that I would not be giving my enemy what he wants, and the Israeli leadership does thrive on this, with just another excuse to inflict more damage and destruction on the Palestinian population even though this defies all rules of law amd ethics. I don't doubt for one minute that this is what they want and what they try to incite. In that case, as Ray pointed out previously, a strategy of disrupting Israeli society would be much more effective anyway. Sharon is not grieving for Israeli victims. This is a fascade. He is delighted! Another Palestinian who blows himself up is just one less Palestinian who will have a family and bring more Palestinians into the world where your thoughts come in about saving Palestinian youth, which is the future of Palestine , instead of destroying it. Live for Palestine ! Marlene
Absolutely! The breaking down of society is precisely what the Israeli government wants. Civil disruption is the way to go, or if people are determined to still hit militarily, target the army where it hurts. That is completely within the realm of the law, and it hurts Israel 's psyche far more. On a personal level, it saves our own youth. These days, that should be our concern. There is an Israeli rabbi who once said that the lives of one thousand Arabs is not worth the fingernail of a Jew. I won't go so far as to be that hateful and despicable, but I would caution Palestinians to remember how much Israelis treasure their own lives. Why are our youth being wasted? And consider that the PA is going to negotiate a final deal anyway. The loss of Palestinian life is unforgivable.
A vision of hope and a better tomorrow is what must be conveyed to our precious youth. We must convince them that their lives carry a great amount of importance to us and the rest of the Palestinian people and should not be wasted in such a manner!
I am still baffled as to why Israeli roads and infrastructure, particularly the ones in the occupied territories are not targeted!
While I support a world in which "Jewish people" are living in
prosperity and safety with and within every other nation and people,
Israel and the "Jewish people" cannot be allowed to ride rough shod
over others.
If the "Jewish people" wish to live in peace with the non Jews of
the world, let them show it in their actions. This would include
their involvements in infiltrating governments such as America
government and formenting wars against non Jewish nations in the
Middle East and worldwide. Let the "Jewish people" be known for
their ability to find ways for everyone to live in peace and end
wars rather than being known for their sly formentations of wars and
strife worldwide.
May it begin in Palestine . Otherwise, may the fighting increase
until there is complete victory over these anti Christ, gentile
hating, world dominating Judeao/Zionist/Bolshevik monsters.
Mik
I can see stopping suicide bombings, as they guarantee the death of
the one carrying out the attack. To me it has never been the
warriors way. To die in battle against ones enemy with some hope of
survival and victory is one thing, but to fight in ways that always
guarantee the death of the warrior seems wrong from a survival of
the species and family standpoint. It is one thing to sacrifice
oneself in the heat of battle, and yet another to guarantee one's
own destruction.
However to give up all resistance while ones enemy continues to
descimate the Palestinian people, showing no respect for them, their
property, or their families, while the enemy ( Israel ) continues it's
aggressions and killings may be self defeating as well.
Yet, we are still waiting for Israel to show that is their
intention. The intentions that Israel shows, judging from the
political speeches in the Knesset, it to continue on their slow
ethnic cleansing and genocide of the Palestinian people. On at least
a weekly schedule they call out for even more wars against Syria and
Iran , and we know their manipulations within the American government
to attack all other Arab countries as well. So why should armed
resistance stop?
Setting aside suicide bombings and armed struggle sounds like a good
idea provided Israel was dedicated to ending it's aggressions,
murder, assasinations, land theft and daily torture and torment of
the Palestinian and non Jewish people throughout the Middle East and
the World.
If Israel wished to create a situation in which everyone was working
for the common good of all, let it so be!! It would seem to be the
best for everyone....
On suicide bombings ... they are illegal and immoral and wrong. Period. You don't kill innocent people or hold an entire nation guilty for the actions of its leaders ... Palestinians make that very good argument all the time, yet some say nothingt when Palesitnians kill innocent Israelis in this most vicious and brutal manner. There is NO COMPROMISE on suicide bombings ... it is an ugly, uIslamic, unChristian act of horrendous immoral violence. People on both sides are committing illegal acts. How can we, as Palestinians, denounce Israel for violating Palestinian rights through such things as collective punishment, when we permit ourselves to rationalize the collective guilt of all Jews in Israel . They are not all guilty of crimes against Palesitnians and many non-Jews are killed, too. There is one morality. One principle. One rule of law. One standard. One justice. WHen you apply it to both sides fairly, then you can argue that justice is on your side. Don't let passion turn into emotion and then violence. It hasn't done one thing to help Palestine and that is a fact. Ray Hanania
A suicide bomber commits first a suicide and then secondly he kills his ennemy,invader,opressor. If an Israeli would commit a suicide bombing he or she will be killing his own victims. Therefore Dr. S. Muzher is utterly wrong in making any comparaison , as she did ,initialy. What she wrote was 180 degree away from correct. Horst
Dear Ray , I see now why the Americans gave you a reward. Was it the same crime when the British bommbed Germany as when Germany bombed England ???? Was it the same crime when an Algerian shot a French Soldier in Algeria , when the French were the occupiers ??? Why should we be more "Catholish than the Pope" ?? why should we turn the left cheak and the right cheak and again the left cheak,etc ?? Why the hypocrisy when you have the moral-high-ground ?? are we fishing for an Oscar or for a Nobel Prize ?? Horst Gottwald BRD
Why would one speak on a subject as important as this, without
knowledge or acknowledgement of the law in these matters?
There is absolutely NO DOUBT Israel has always been on the wrong side
of the law for decades now; whereas Palestinians are not on the wrong
side of the law, and have not violated the law - not even what you
refer to as "suicide bombers" are illegal. Because Israel is illegally
occupying Palestine , such a legal and physical fact, by international
law, gives Palestinians the legal right to use what the Geneva
Conventions term as, "....any means necessary" to evict the illegal
occupiers from Palestine .
The entire world knows Israel and the US government are partners in
crime against Palestine and Muslims worldwide.
Too bad the American people have been brainwashed by the
Corporate-Zionist media in America , for their entire lives. most
Americans don't even KNOW Israel and the U.S. is and has been on the
wrong side of the law since day one.
.r o n
Raja, is that your new "name?" Horst? Raja, I stand by what I said. If you are into Palestinians blowing themselves up, why don't you offer youself up for sacrifice first. Goodness, how easy it is to push for others to be killed from the comfort of one's home.
A suicide bomber commits first a suicide and then secondly he kills his ennemy,invader,opressor. If an Israeli would commit a suicide bombing he or she will be killing his own victims. Therefore Dr. S. Muzher is utterly wrong in making any comparaison , as she did ,initialy. What she wrote was 180 degree away from correct. Horst
it is interesting to note that Israelis rarely spoke out against leaving the Occupied Territories and never cared about the suffering of Palestinians until violence visited them on their doorsteps. Who is rewarding violence? Israelis generally make it extremely difficult for those of us who support Satyagraha to do so. >>>
Good point Palestinians were very passive under the Israeli occupation for 20 years, from 1967 until the first intifada in 1987 so there was nothing for the Israelis to complain about. Until that time, in the United States, I would say no one was paying any attention to the Palestinians, and they were like a people who never existed, which is the way Israel would have liked it to remain.
The first intifada was mostly all civilians who had no weapons other than stones and molotov cocktails, yet they were brutalized just for that. The first suicide bombing didn't happen until 1994 which was 7 years after the first uprising, and then 27 years into the Israeli occupation, just after Baruch Goldstein killed 29 Muslim worshippers in Hebron, for which the Israeli government did nothing when they should have removed the crazed fanatics. The lives of the Palestinians still remained unchanged. So it seems very likely that without armed struggle, the Palestinians will be swept under the rug again unless there is some kind of very strong, unified worldwide effort made on their behalf.
Marlene
Ron, then tell me how I defend this:
The Israelis say that the Palestinians "breed" suicide bombers, encourage
their children to become martyrs.
We deny that, right?
Then why do I have a Palestinian friend, very very financially successful
and perhaps someone people here on this list have met and seen in the media,
who would actually send his son to die as a suicide bomber if he could?
Why do I know of one Palestinian mother who has, despite me cringing when I
hear this, who indeed has given birth to twelve children, a couple who have
so far become suicide bombers and her reason for "replacing" them with more?
This exists, and it's despicable. But there *are* people, well educated and
very well off, who would do this?
It is only partly, according to them, to do with Israel .
So how do you defend that?
Tanya
The Israelis say that the Palestinians "breed" suicide bombers, encourage
their children to become martyrs.
We deny that, right?
Then why do I have a Palestinian friend, very very financially successful
and perhaps someone people here on this list have met and seen in the media,
who would actually send his son to die as a suicide bomber if he could?
Why do I know of one Palestinian mother who has, despite me cringing when I
hear this, who indeed has given birth to twelve children, a couple who have
so far become suicide bombers and her reason for "replacing" them with more?
This exists, and it's despicable. But there *are* people, well educated and
very well off, who would do this?
It is only partly, according to them, to do with Israel .
So how do you defend that?
Tanya
I don't speak for the Palestinian Authority, nor the PLO, nor Sherri or any
other member here.
But you, Ron, are out of line *in my opinion*.
You call Sherri a phoney? You cannot be serious.
Do you seriously think that Palestinians....all of them...MUST think the way
you do because you are enlightened and they are not?
What makes you think Sherri is inactive?
Fighting is your answer, isn't it? That's all?
Sad, so sad.
Tanya
other member here.
But you, Ron, are out of line *in my opinion*.
You call Sherri a phoney? You cannot be serious.
Do you seriously think that Palestinians....all of them...MUST think the way
you do because you are enlightened and they are not?
What makes you think Sherri is inactive?
Fighting is your answer, isn't it? That's all?
Sad, so sad.
Tanya
Ron, if you "respectfully" disagree, then "respectfully" disagree.
I recall just about six weeks ago you left a post asking to be enlightened and that you had a lot to learn (something to that effect). Now, six weeks later, you seem to know everything and others know nothing and you're the only one who understands the hopelessness and despair of the Palestinians, which is a good thing, but please don't accuse anyone of not understanding when they have long been involved in the Palestinian struggle, which is sometimes just being armed with a keyboard.
We're all well aware that the law is with the Palestinians which certainly legitimizes their struggle and makes it just without any doubt, so if laws were adhered to, it sure would solve a lof of problems, but that is not the way it has thus far worked.
I hope you at least looked up Sherri's name in Google to read some of the wonderful articles she's written which you may also learn further from.
Marlene
You forgot to mention that I work for Mossad and was solely responsible for the drafting of the Oslo Accords -- I managed to do this at the tender age of 23. <<
You too?! Sherri...welcome to the club! ;-)
>>You have got to be kidding me, Ron. I question the agenda of those who spend their energies trying to bring down other activists -- I truly do. You are not the first one I have come across to try and do this, and sadly won't be the last. You are free to look up my witings on the internet. Then, come back to me with your rubbish.<<
Amen. Sadly and with regrets Sherri...amen.
It's not worth it. Our efforts need to be confined to changing things, not arguing the same old story to those who are quite fresh to this. (The “radical” thought process playing out...)
You too?! Sherri...welcome to the club! ;-)
>>You have got to be kidding me, Ron. I question the agenda of those who spend their energies trying to bring down other activists -- I truly do. You are not the first one I have come across to try and do this, and sadly won't be the last. You are free to look up my witings on the internet. Then, come back to me with your rubbish.<<
Amen. Sadly and with regrets Sherri...amen.
It's not worth it. Our efforts need to be confined to changing things, not arguing the same old story to those who are quite fresh to this. (The “radical” thought process playing out...)
I read Sherri's post and see her love of Palestine and Palestinians in very word. Some of the postings on this list also relay a love of Palestine and Palestinians, however, they're mixed with bullying, one-sidedness, personal attacks and condescending mannerisms.
For example, Ray Hanania is always being misread. Ray, a Palestinian, has done more for Palestine by being a professional journalist and writing about the Palestinian cause. Precisely because he is Palestinian, he is taken seriously. How many Palestinians write columns regularly in a major metropolitan area? Even if we don't agree with his views, his message of injustice is there. It gives information to the most misinformed and uniformed population. It's not easy putting Palestine in front of yourself in America. Ray does just that. To think that he's in it for money or fame or he's a spy is insane. Why are we blinded by that? A question that I think will continue to be asked as long as we continue to create negativity amongst ourselves.
you are dead right.
I'm wondering if it's worth it to continue here also, because there are valuable items posted many a time.
But this is what we see over and over and over: fighting and in-fighting because this person here doesn't believe exactly what this person here believes.
This is exactly what we all know happens, and it leads to nothing .
I posted some other messages yesterday along these lines but haven't seen them posted. Have they come through?
Tanya
Oh my..........what it boils down to is, you believe Palestinian "suicide bombers" lives were spent in vain, when they could have lived there life out in peace instead.....I respectfully disagree.... that's why I think you're a phony, to a certain extent......because you apparently don't truly understand and comprehend the hopelessness and despair, comingled with the "suicide bomber's" attempt to make their life mean something more than just one of unilateral suffering. These people don't have an air force, navy and marines, nuclear bombs and helicopters.......but they do have the self-determination to fight their oppressors the best way they can..........many Westerners cannot comprehend this, because of most Westerners' lack of empathy in these matters. To sit quitely inactive, while your oppressors destroy you and your homeland seems unreasonable to me. r o n
trying to explain what? if Palestinians would just stop the "suicide bombing" then things could get better? That seems to be Sherri's point. If Palestinians would just stop the suicide bombings, then Israelis would stop killing Palestinians? If Palestinians would just stop the suicide bombings, then the world community will come to Palestinians' rescue? My point is what I said before: I'm not sending "suicide bombers" to die. I prefer no Palestinians or Israelis to die. I do understand Palestinian "suicide bombers" are a by-product of Israeli oppression and occupation - not a by-product of themselves. "Suicide bombers" are not a solution, but a symptom of decades of hopelessness and Israeli occupation/oppression. The disease is Israeli & U.S. lawlessness - the hypocrisy of our democracy - and The Cure is the international community, especially the United States, forcing Israel to comply with the 65+ U.N. Resolutions Israel is in violation of. There's your "Peace Plan" : FOLLOW THE LAW! .r o n
(12/23) Whenever I am asked about my support for suicide bombings, I always respond that
the question is an attempt to change the subject from Israeli crimes against humanity.
That is precisely what it is.
AFter the listener has had a chance to digest that, I go on to say that NO ONE outside of Palestine has a right to pass judgment on the tactics of resistance. NO ONE.
Since I have ususally been talking to French people, who are on the whole much more reasonable that US audiences, people usually do not find this response unreasonable.
But I continue to use it in the United States. The Zionists groan and howl, but after a time that dies away. I can tell most of the people listening understand.
the question is an attempt to change the subject from Israeli crimes against humanity.
That is precisely what it is.
AFter the listener has had a chance to digest that, I go on to say that NO ONE outside of Palestine has a right to pass judgment on the tactics of resistance. NO ONE.
Since I have ususally been talking to French people, who are on the whole much more reasonable that US audiences, people usually do not find this response unreasonable.
But I continue to use it in the United States. The Zionists groan and howl, but after a time that dies away. I can tell most of the people listening understand.
(12/23) We all understand.
It isn't working.
Now what?
Tanya
It isn't working.
Now what?
Tanya
Oh, no lecturing here from me.
I merely state that the international world has a problem with that. It is their opinion, and this is the biggest hindrance outside of Israel itself.
(12/23) The leadership will change, but what we have now is still pretty corrupt. The stories I have on how to operate within the PA or PLO are shameful. We know that Marwan Barghouti was a “good” man, and yet he's the one in jail. He's the one with the tiny apartment in a dangerous area. The others? Mansions and chauffeurs.
Appalling, when the people suffer so much. Do they deserve our undying and unswerving support? Is it time to call them to the table and demand proper change, not some petty paper chase?
How I wish Marwan stayed in; he promised he would not back out, and yet he did. How I wish Rantisi was still alive. There was so much hope in him.
What we have is what we have.
But under no circumstances to I lecture Palestinians there on morality. I merely point out what we all know: the view “outside” isn't changing, no matter how many deaths and suicides.
There has to be a better way.
I merely state that the international world has a problem with that. It is their opinion, and this is the biggest hindrance outside of Israel itself.
(12/23) The leadership will change, but what we have now is still pretty corrupt. The stories I have on how to operate within the PA or PLO are shameful. We know that Marwan Barghouti was a “good” man, and yet he's the one in jail. He's the one with the tiny apartment in a dangerous area. The others? Mansions and chauffeurs.
Appalling, when the people suffer so much. Do they deserve our undying and unswerving support? Is it time to call them to the table and demand proper change, not some petty paper chase?
How I wish Marwan stayed in; he promised he would not back out, and yet he did. How I wish Rantisi was still alive. There was so much hope in him.
What we have is what we have.
But under no circumstances to I lecture Palestinians there on morality. I merely point out what we all know: the view “outside” isn't changing, no matter how many deaths and suicides.
There has to be a better way.
(12/27) "I know why you aren't calling for Israel to comply with the law. I know
why you are obfuscating the issue of the imperative need for Israel and
the U.S. government to comply with the law, in order to create
conditions for peace. I don't hear you pontificating on the need for
the guilty parties to start following the law. You act and speak as if
Palestinians are wrongdoers who need to correct their evil,
unproductive ways." You forgot to mention that I work for Mossad and was solely responsible for the drafting of the Oslo Accords -- I managed to do this at the tender age of 23.You have got to be kidding me, Ron. I question the agenda of those who spend their energies trying to bring down other activists -- I truly do. You are not the first one I have come across to try and do this, and sadly won't be the last. You are free to look up my witings on the internet. Then, come back to me with your rubbish.
why you are obfuscating the issue of the imperative need for Israel and
the U.S. government to comply with the law, in order to create
conditions for peace. I don't hear you pontificating on the need for
the guilty parties to start following the law. You act and speak as if
Palestinians are wrongdoers who need to correct their evil,
unproductive ways." You forgot to mention that I work for Mossad and was solely responsible for the drafting of the Oslo Accords -- I managed to do this at the tender age of 23.
You have got to be kidding me, Ron. I question the agenda of those who spend their energies trying to bring down other activists -- I truly do. You are not the first one I have come across to try and do this, and sadly won't be the last. You are free to look up my witings on the internet. Then, come back to me with your rubbish.(12/27) Just reading this whole exchange is so sad. It has prompted me to leave many lists and stop being involved in some major Palestinian organizations. I do a lot of organizing around peace and support for non-violence. When I reach out to the Palestinians and different groups this is what I see. I find myself depressed and sad--we are truly a mess.
This is not a personal attack, just an observation. Sometimes I really wonder about the people who so vehemently argue for Palestinian rights--not exclusive to this list. Will peace leave them twiddling their thumbs... is it the thrill of the fight? When it gets ugly, those things cross my mind--whether they are Arab/Palestinian or not. What are we looking to the future for? Chicago's Palestinian community mirrors this exchange. So much more can be done TOGETHER without the conspiracy theories, personal attacks. Can we agree to disagree and work together on common themes, or are we destined to languish in anger and dispair... Saffiya
(12/27) Ron, That seems to be my point? Go back and read my posts to see the point of what I said. I will ask you a rhetorical question -- rhetorical because I don't care to hear or read your patronizing conspiracies. Many of us know Palestinians who resisted the Israeli Occupation in the first Intifada. They didn't blow themselves up. Are they not worthy of our respect? Resistance comes in many forms. Even succeeding in the arts is a form of resistance, such as Ammar Hassan. Look at the Palestinian soccer team who are fighting against all odds to make it to the World Cup in 2006. Are they not heroes for daring to dream? And why do I say that the PA will negotiate the final deal? Because it will. Watch the news. It's not my choice. It's the reality. The kicker for me is that most of those who keep talking about fighting and death are people that live here in the States. They eat, drink, and sleep in safety but damn the Palestinians overseas if they say they are tired and just want some normalcy in their lives. One of the most disappointing aspects in this struggle for Palestinian justice is the infighting and unbelivable lack of tolerance toward people who want to try new approaches. I don't think there is a point in continuing this discussion given the personal attacks. Some people thrive on it but if we are to make a difference, we have to stick together. Those who don't get this simple point are part of the reason that 57 years of struggling have brought us us no further than 1947. That is nothing to be proud of.
trying to explain what? if Palestinians would just stop the "suicide
bombing" then things could get better? That seems to be Sherri's point.
If Palestinians would just stop the suicide bombings, then Israelis
would stop killing Palestinians?
If Palestinians would just stop the suicide bombings, then the world
community will come to Palestinians' rescue?
(12/27) My point is what I said before:
I'm not sending "suicide bombers" to die. I prefer no Palestinians or
Israelis to die.
I do understand Palestinian "suicide bombers" are a by-product of
Israeli oppression and occupation - not a by-product of themselves.
"Suicide bombers" are not a solution, but a symptom of decades of
hopelessness and Israeli occupation/oppression.
The disease is Israeli & U.S. lawlessness - the hypocrisy of our
democracy - and The Cure is the international community, especially the
United States, forcing Israel to comply with the 65+ U.N. Resolutions
Israel is in violation of. There's your "Peace Plan" : FOLLOW THE LAW!
bombing" then things could get better? That seems to be Sherri's point.
If Palestinians would just stop the suicide bombings, then Israelis
would stop killing Palestinians?
If Palestinians would just stop the suicide bombings, then the world
community will come to Palestinians' rescue?
(12/27) My point is what I said before:
I'm not sending "suicide bombers" to die. I prefer no Palestinians or
Israelis to die.
I do understand Palestinian "suicide bombers" are a by-product of
Israeli oppression and occupation - not a by-product of themselves.
"Suicide bombers" are not a solution, but a symptom of decades of
hopelessness and Israeli occupation/oppression.
The disease is Israeli & U.S. lawlessness - the hypocrisy of our
democracy - and The Cure is the international community, especially the
United States, forcing Israel to comply with the 65+ U.N. Resolutions
Israel is in violation of. There's your "Peace Plan" : FOLLOW THE LAW!
(12/28) It seems we've created a micro-cosmic mini Palestine here that seems
to mirror what's going on in Palestine many times. Some think
ending violence is the best way, others think continuing
in military and physical struggle is the right path to take.
Both factions prefer peace, yet it escapes from everyone, each
blaming the approach of the other for the failing to obtain their
objectives.
There's some action along both lines, both peaceful and violent, yet
nothing is accomplished that frees the Palestinians from their daily
strife and struggle. Such is the nature of this beast.
One thing for sure, this 'dividedness' is part of the problem
in achieving victory for the Palestinians. The lack of a clear
and well defined plan that everyone agrees on makes moving forward
more difficult. Following International Law would soon lead to peace,
yet that is far too simple/difficult for Israel to do, as they covet
the land of the Palestians and for all these years have been
stealing it bit by bit.
I'd like to see the Palestinians win or at least obtain a decent
settlement (no pun intended)in this situation, if there are to be
no "winners" in this. To Continue as it's been for the past years
only wears more heavily on everyone. I would hope that a clear
direction and plan that will be followed by everyone can be made and
followed. Otherwise, resources and lives will continue to be wasted
by everyone involved in this.
Hopefully, the new Palestinian leadership will be able to overcome
these obstacles and obtain a decent settlement if it is at all
possible. My best wishes to whoever shall be chosen to lead. May he
lead the Palestinian people to safety and security.
Mik
to mirror what's going on in Palestine many times. Some think
ending violence is the best way, others think continuing
in military and physical struggle is the right path to take.
Both factions prefer peace, yet it escapes from everyone, each
blaming the approach of the other for the failing to obtain their
objectives.
There's some action along both lines, both peaceful and violent, yet
nothing is accomplished that frees the Palestinians from their daily
strife and struggle. Such is the nature of this beast.
One thing for sure, this 'dividedness' is part of the problem
in achieving victory for the Palestinians. The lack of a clear
and well defined plan that everyone agrees on makes moving forward
more difficult. Following International Law would soon lead to peace,
yet that is far too simple/difficult for Israel to do, as they covet
the land of the Palestians and for all these years have been
stealing it bit by bit.
I'd like to see the Palestinians win or at least obtain a decent
settlement (no pun intended)in this situation, if there are to be
no "winners" in this. To Continue as it's been for the past years
only wears more heavily on everyone. I would hope that a clear
direction and plan that will be followed by everyone can be made and
followed. Otherwise, resources and lives will continue to be wasted
by everyone involved in this.
Hopefully, the new Palestinian leadership will be able to overcome
these obstacles and obtain a decent settlement if it is at all
possible. My best wishes to whoever shall be chosen to lead. May he
lead the Palestinian people to safety and security.
Mik
12/28 - These direct and oblique personal attacks are getting no one
anywhere. Is there some way we can shift this topic to one of
showing how 'non violence' or "direct fighting" might achieve
victory for the Palestinians?
Are there any other possibilities that might be considered?
Mik
anywhere. Is there some way we can shift this topic to one of
showing how 'non violence' or "direct fighting" might achieve
victory for the Palestinians?
Are there any other possibilities that might be considered?
Mik
12/28 - Good point Ron....how can we get our American government to obey
International Law? How can we get our American government to get
Israel to obey International Law?
Talking to the State Department, Congressmen and Senators has so far
gotten us nowhere, as they prefer to back Israel in it's agenda. I'm
not sure if AIPAC being turned inside out by the FBI will change
things one iota or not, but it may help.
We're faced with the problem of Israeli's coming over, to say
nothing of dual citizenshippers, and writing US Policy. Our
President lauds the AEI group, and they're among the worst offenders
in this area. JINSA might be another Think Tank that's so pro Israel
they can see nothing else.
How do we free our country from these folks?
Mik
International Law? How can we get our American government to get
Israel to obey International Law?
Talking to the State Department, Congressmen and Senators has so far
gotten us nowhere, as they prefer to back Israel in it's agenda. I'm
not sure if AIPAC being turned inside out by the FBI will change
things one iota or not, but it may help.
We're faced with the problem of Israeli's coming over, to say
nothing of dual citizenshippers, and writing US Policy. Our
President lauds the AEI group, and they're among the worst offenders
in this area. JINSA might be another Think Tank that's so pro Israel
they can see nothing else.
How do we free our country from these folks?
Mik
12/28 - Would you say that Israeli mom's are "raising their children to be
murderous IDF/IOF men, Tanya?
As one who's 'lived by the sword' in the military, it's not something
that mothers and fathers raise their children for, but in military
struggles, it's just something that happens...
One of these days humanity will wake up, wise up, and beat their
swords into plowshares and fast cars, but until then, no one will
accept being bludgeoned to death, and having their land stolen by an
insatiable enemy who wishes to kill not only the fighters, but ones
whole family without a fight to the death.
Whether the weapons chosen for the fight are weapons of violence
and pain, or non violent resistance is for those who are fighting to
decide. Still, if ones non Violence is yet met with more violence
and theft, how long will people continue in non violence? At some
point, enough is enough.
Mik
murderous IDF/IOF men, Tanya?
As one who's 'lived by the sword' in the military, it's not something
that mothers and fathers raise their children for, but in military
struggles, it's just something that happens...
One of these days humanity will wake up, wise up, and beat their
swords into plowshares and fast cars, but until then, no one will
accept being bludgeoned to death, and having their land stolen by an
insatiable enemy who wishes to kill not only the fighters, but ones
whole family without a fight to the death.
Whether the weapons chosen for the fight are weapons of violence
and pain, or non violent resistance is for those who are fighting to
decide. Still, if ones non Violence is yet met with more violence
and theft, how long will people continue in non violence? At some
point, enough is enough.
Mik
12/28 - Whenever a Palestinian child is born,
We win
Whenever that child goes to school,
We win
Whenever a Palestinian child excels,
We win
Whenever a Palestinian child graduates,
We win
Whenever a Palestinian graduates college
We win
Whenever a Palestinian becomes a professional (doctor, lawyer, engineer, and so on)
We win
Whenever he or she gets married,
We win
Whenever there is a Palestinian wedding,
We win
Whenever he or she has Palestinian children of their own,
We win!!!
Whenever I take my 3 children back home to Palestine and see their eyes light up upon seeing their “homeland”,
We win
Whenever my children answer “Beit Hanina, Palestine ”, when they are asked where they come from, although they were born right here in Michigan ,
We win!!!
Whenever Palestinian children, who are born and raised in America , decide to send their Eid money to Palestinian refugees instead of spending it toys and video games,
We Win!
The point is, WE WIN by just existing! We win by being steadfast in the face of overwhelming odds! We win, by facing these odds, and yet keeping our humanity intact!
We win because a less resilient and resolute people would have ceased to exist long ago, consigned to the trash heap of history!
Whenever a mother endures unbearable pain and anguish, just so that her children are fed and educated,
We win!
I need not look no farther than my own Palestinian mother, who was married at 13, was a refugee on 3 different occasions, braved 2 wars, raised 6 children on her own in a male dominated society in very harsh times, although illiterate, could teach the most educated of men a few things, fought against crooked lawyers and Israeli officials and kept most of our family lands intact, even though on many occasions, they tried to take advantage of her!
Hanni
12/28 - Right here in the good old USA we hear of fathers and mothers speaking of the pride they feel sending their sons and daughter to fight for their country, even though they are fighting a war many thousands of miles away and one that is not directly threatening this country! I have heard MANY American fathers say that they will gladly send their children to fight and die for their country!
I reject much of what Tanya has written. She does not take the context in which some remarks are made!
Mike
12/28 - We win when it's least expected that we stand together, advocate for non-violence (because they want to label us as violent animals) and organize a movement so strong--one message repeated over and over again. Message: International laws to be abided and non-violent resistance--what would that look like... the road to concessions, I hope. Then those Congresspeople and organized lobbies will be dumbfounded and try to re-strategize on how to thwart our efforts. We in the States should rise up to the challenge because we are not suffering the same way.
Saffiya
12/28 - I am glad that you brought this up:
How many of you on this list have written or made an attempt to meet with your congressional representatives?
They should be hearing from you on a regular basis, even if its just to “educate them”!
How many have taken the time to write at least ONE letter to the Editor of your hometown or national paper?
It's easy belonging to these discussion groups, while doing nothing else! These discussion groups should be a source of inspiration and information so that you might be able to be more effective in your own activism! We here in America still can't seem to understand and learn how the “game is played in this country”…
I really can't help but shake my head and laugh when a member of one of these discussion lists threatens to leave and or reiterates that they are “wasting their time by being here”! No one is forcing anyone to be here or on any other list. We are here for ONE reason and ONE reason only:
To help and support the Palestinian people in their JUST and LEGITIMATE struggle for freedom!
Our own sense of “self importance” means absolutely NOTHING. In the end, we are all guided by our convictions and our own conscience…
Just my 2 “cents” worth…Not shekels!
Mike
12/28 - Tanya, don't you think the Palestinians are demonized enough without adding to it. Well-educated people have committed the worst crimes against humanity while many Palestinian mothers are no different than many mothers of soldiers who are proud of sending their children off to fight, kill and die for reasons that don't even make sense and who do not live under oppressive conditions, yet no one calls that "despicable." Marlene
12/28 - The dialogue of the deaf I believe my dear friends that you have reached with your dialogue on the question concerning suicide bombings, or what others call martyr operations, to a dead end, or what is known as: "The dialogue of the deaf" May I suggest that you discuss the question of Zionist atrocities, and consider that when they import young Jews from around the world, pollute their brains with Zionist racialism, put them in military fatigue and send them to kill the occupied indigenous population of Palestine and be killed, that this is more then suicide bombing???!!! Or put an end to this lub lub? Noting that some of the participants in this dialogue are equalizing between the occupier and the occupied, between the persecutor and the persecuted... and between the invaders and the resistance Palestinian Arabs face them with???
Tanya writes 12/28 - This exists, and it's despicable. But there *are* people, well educated and
very well off, who would do this?
It is only partly, according to them, to do with Israel . ”
very well off, who would do this?
It is only partly, according to them, to do with Israel . ”
12/28 - So you mean to tell me that “it is only partly to do with Israel ” that there are suicide bombers? So people kill themselves for sport? Or is it a “defect” in their makeup? Or maybe, they are just “barbarians and beasts” who possess no redeeming qualities as human beings? Or maybe they are not as advanced as the western culture, the very same culture and societies that gave us the crusades, the Holocaust, 2 World Wars, and the murder of over 3 million innocent people in Vietnam and other places, just to name a few!
In the past, I have tried to understand your often erroneous and misguided views, BUT you are totally out of line and DEAD wrong! Palestinian mothers DO NOT breed suicide bombers. You are taking the Zionist party line when you state such utter nonsense. I have seen many times over, when a Palestinian mother loses a son to an Israeli terrorist (yes they are terrorists in every sense of the word) and in that very emotional moment, they say things that are taken out of context, recorded and replayed and quoted ENDLES SL Y by Zionists and their sympathizers in the media, by Evangelical fanatics, and most effectively, by HonestReporting's propaganda “documentary”, Relentless, which has been touring the country and being screened and supported by the Christian Zionists!
In fact, you repeated, word for word, the same things that I have seen in the Zionist propaganda “documentary”!
NO Palestinian mother or father would ever choose death over a normal life for their children, a life that offers hope and a better tomorrow. No Palestinian mother would choose death over life for her children, NO matter what you and the Zionists say!
You underestimate and discount the love that Palestinian mothers have for their children as if they were “less” than other mothers in the world. In fact, I really have yet to see ANY mothers, who are as loving, caring, and willing to sacrifice as much as Palestinian mothers.
Palestinian mothers are often placed in the most difficult of circumstances imaginable. They endure hardships that you or any one else that is NOT living there can imagine.
In 1967, my own mother braved Israeli gunfire and humiliation just so that she could get us some water and a little bit of flour so that we would not starve as we sought refuge in scorpion infested caves for over 3 weeks. In 1967, my PALESTINIAN MOTHER stood between an Israeli soldier's machine gun and my older brother, telling the Israeli soldier he would have to kill her FIRST, before killing her child in front of her eyes!
My Palestinian mother was by no means “unique”, in fact, she more accurately represented Palestinian mothers than the demonizing nature of what you wrote!
During the first Intifada, whenever Israeli soldiers would try to arrest a Palestinian boy, Palestinian women who happened to be standing by would fight with the soldiers and prevent his arrest or beating by shielding him and saying that they were his MOTHER. This happened so often that an Israeli commander once lamented to the Palestinian women (about 5 of them who were claiming the young Palestinian as their son) “Do all Palestinian children have more than one mother?” To which a Palestinian mother answered, “Yes”, Palestinian children have many mothers, while you, the Israeli soldiers, have MANY fathers”…
Mike
12/28 - what the?????? hmmmm........Tanya's western mind has come into full view........thank you for revealing your true point of view.....now I understand Tanya; certainly Tanya means well and wants peace for everyone.........that's good........but, and it's a big butt, clearly Tanya knows NOT of the personal feelings of oppression and anger at having your family members killed by Israeli occupying forces, or knowing you can never return to your homeland, or knowing that the incredibly difficult life on the ground in Palestine is not going to change in their lifetimes; Tanya could easily envision herself walking into a Palestinian classroom with George Bush and walking to the front of the classroom and telling the teacher and kids: "No teacher, stop teaching those children to hate and fight your Israeli oppressors/rapists and killers. You should just accept this U.S. sponsored violence and systematic destruction of your homes and flesh. How dare you complain of your abuse? You're abusing the Israelis and your own kids, by fighting back....do not resist......just take this Israeli genocide with a coke and a smile. It's all your fault........stop discussng how Israelis have killed your family members and committed one of history's nastiest genocidal oppressions ever. Stop discussing your reality amongst yourselves, and just sit quitely and don't ever fight back this Israeli occupation." Tanya must not have ever heard of the six degrees of separation......I think Tanya has 600 degrees of separation between her and Palestinian reality -death and heartache by Israel. Tanya doesn't realize that for most Palestinians, there are no degrees of separation.....virtually every Palestinian has a family member who has been killed, wounded and/or personally or systematically abused by Israelis.........Tanya is viewing the plight of Palestinians through western glasses, dripping with Zionist rhetoric. Tanya doesn't realize that every single solitary act of violence by Palestinians is very much lawful and of a defensive nature. Apparently, Tanya doesn't realize who the aggressor is, and who the victim is..........no surprise there.......very typical of westerners.............Tanya would make a good Republican...........r o n
12/28 - ...I don't want to take sides in this but i have to say all what is happening to do with this is VERY NORMAL....we all come from diffrent backgrounds and have been raised in our families in diffrent ways from the other....and no two minds are the same....this is the people in this group and the world in general....we have diffrent minds so that we can complete each other as no one is an island whole of themselves! unfortunatley in this group it is obvious not only that we are diffrent people but some have diffrent intentions to why one would join this group... however i do second Adib's opinion here.....instead of focusing on those poor humans who've lived lifeless lives and died in that way terrible...we can help stop further by doing things like picking out a few crimes and asking the murders to be brought to justice as that way no one will think "i should take justice into my own hands as it doesn't exist in this dark world!"...such the killing of ordinary humans has become routine (And i remeber someone warning not to let that happen the second week of the intifada started...unfortunatley no one listens to people who make sense!) a few crimes more horrendous that others in natures can be picked like the shooting in the head of those two babies a 6 month year old and a 3 month year old baby boy in Hebron in summer 3 years ago.....and then work the way to get all the other criminals to a true justice..........until that happens in a world that infants so young get shot in the head what kind of hope exactly do we give to the teenaged and young adults of the family of the children killed that way??? anyway......just this and no need to get angry on anyone or gang up on anyone or getting a high blood pressure at anything.....we're diffrent people and everything about us diffrent so discord is only natural...... just my opinion........and i again i say what Adib said here i agree with.
12/28 - I see all the anger at Tanya for what she wrote. I hate to say this but I have heard some people say the same thing... they'd send their children to die. They say it, I believe, out of frustration. The few that have made it to the airwaves have been exploited to the full extent. It's ugly to see and taken out of context. Remember the video (I saw it in the U.S.) of the mother saying goodbye knowing her son that was going on a suicide mission--that's what they made us think anyway and shortly after Laura Bush said that she does not feel sorry for Palestinian mothers that send their children to die--or something like that. Those people are the exception... not the rule and maybe what was said or videoed was taken out of context--maybe not. The whole situation was brought about by the brutal occupation in my opinion.
Also, religion has a lot to do with it too. Palestine is not Islamic only and I think those that have done a lot of the violence against innocents are Muslims on a mission from God. When in fact it is so against Islam to do such a thing to oneself and others. That is how I was raised as a Muslim. I personally, don't think the Prophet (pbuh) would advocate for such a thing.
Saffiya
12/28 - I can say that I have and I have also initiated letter writing campaigns to both Senators from my state and gotten responses. I have gotten meetings with two Congresspeople and I also attended meetings with the State Dept., the House and Senate in DC through AAI in DC. I was able to address concerns directly to some of our elected officials with a group of like-minded people. It's easy to get involved but it's not easy to hold your temper and unfortunately, someone in the crowd started shouting and we all look like goofs. It's better these days because people are realizing the power of the pen and a calm demeanor. I encourage everyone to write letters to their papers (it's being done a lot) and organizing groups of people to visit their representatives.
The saddest thing to me was recently when I visited my Congressman, he said that "your people are interested in being American." He didn't view others that came in to see him as American and interested in any common issues. I'm sure that doesn't happen when pro-Israeli's visit but they are probably much more polished on their approach as well as much more united and well connected. One-on-one doesn't work with elected officials, they need to see a unified front.
Saffiya
12/28 - bull......bullcookies.......blame it on religion, instead of Israeli oppression....this is why I call you a westerner. you must be........you probably just got back from Target and Chili's. .r o n
12/28 - Let me ask you this Saffiya, since Israeli's have 'no problems'
with being violence animals and can care less about those who see
their ugliness, in fact taking great pride in their ugliness,
promoting the ugliest and most murderous to the highest offices in
their government, why should Palestinians be concerned about what
they are being called while they are being murdered by the truely
murderous animals, the Zionists?
Just type "Israeli Terrorism" into your search engine, and there
will appear many references to the history of the terrorist
activities of the "Jewish State" that so many Jews are running to
become members of.
Mik
with being violence animals and can care less about those who see
their ugliness, in fact taking great pride in their ugliness,
promoting the ugliest and most murderous to the highest offices in
their government, why should Palestinians be concerned about what
they are being called while they are being murdered by the truely
murderous animals, the Zionists?
Just type "Israeli Terrorism" into your search engine, and there
will appear many references to the history of the terrorist
activities of the "Jewish State" that so many Jews are running to
become members of.
Mik
12/28 - Why don't you, Ron, six months in to this arena of politics, stop digging when you're in the hole?
I've been involved with this for 20 years almost, so you only make yourself look utterly foolish by spreading this wherever you think you will have an audience.
Yeah yeah, I know nothing. You know everything. Good luck.
Tanya
I've been involved with this for 20 years almost, so you only make yourself look utterly foolish by spreading this wherever you think you will have an audience.
Yeah yeah, I know nothing. You know everything. Good luck.
Tanya
12/28 - typical American housewife-style response..........typical American snubbery.......you don't know my experience....how can you assign me six months experience when you don't know my experience? I was locked in solitary confinement in an American jail for reading a Muslim book banned in Texas.......I became Muslim in prison in the 1990's. I did over four years in a Texas penitentiary. I don't call myself a Muslim today......personal reasons........but I do understand the issues.....in fact, you don't have to be Muslim to understand who the lawbreakers are in this instance. You sound terribly frustrated and one-dimensional........r o n On Dec 28, 2004, at 11:54 AM, Tanya C. Hsu wrote: > Why don't you, Ron, six months in to this arena of politics, stop > digging when you're in the hole? > > I've been involved with this for 20 years almost, so you only make > yourself look utterly foolish by spreading this wherever you think you > will have an audience. > > Yeah yeah, I know nothing. You know everything. Good luck. > > Tanya
12/28 - This is my point Mik.
Raise one issue that's taboo, and god help you....turn it around and put it to the other side.
You know, Lenni Brenner did a marvellous thing. In his 51 Documents he spoke openly and publicly about the Jews who helped Hitler in WWII. This was a subject that Jews knew about but hid. I mentioned the book to a Jewish “half Zionist” friend of mine, who never wants to talk about politics. After three glasses of wine she broke down crying and admitted that her father was one of them. He rounded up the Jews, his own people, and put them on the trains.
Her secret had come out. But when I mentioned it to another Jewish friend...oh no, that didn't happen. It could never happen, don't talk about it, you are anti-Semitic Tanya. Never speak of this again.
Okay, stick your heads in the sand. Fine by me.
Raise one issue that's taboo, and god help you....turn it around and put it to the other side.
You know, Lenni Brenner did a marvellous thing. In his 51 Documents he spoke openly and publicly about the Jews who helped Hitler in WWII. This was a subject that Jews knew about but hid. I mentioned the book to a Jewish “half Zionist” friend of mine, who never wants to talk about politics. After three glasses of wine she broke down crying and admitted that her father was one of them. He rounded up the Jews, his own people, and put them on the trains.
Her secret had come out. But when I mentioned it to another Jewish friend...oh no, that didn't happen. It could never happen, don't talk about it, you are anti-Semitic Tanya. Never speak of this again.
Okay, stick your heads in the sand. Fine by me.
Don't I? 12/28
How on earth do you possibly know?
Tanya
How on earth do you possibly know?
Tanya
Why is it amusing to you that people are tired of the bickering?
12/28 - Why do you assume that I or others don't spend our own money flying around the country, flying to the Middle East, talking every day to politicians, talking every other day to representatives in the region? I don't tell anyone here who I met with, who I spoke with, or where I'm going. Mention one thing and people caustically remark that I'm the sole representative of the PNA ha ha, so tell me....What is the point?
Why do you think that many of us don't work, hard core, daily, get paid for and not paid for both, for change? How do you know I don't put in 12 hours a day 7 days a week and have done for years in promoting trade, medical relief, travel assistance, diplomatic relations, etc.?
The nerve of some people is astounding.
Write one message here and one doesn't do anything?
It's insulting.
Tanya
12/28 - Why do you assume that I or others don't spend our own money flying around the country, flying to the Middle East, talking every day to politicians, talking every other day to representatives in the region? I don't tell anyone here who I met with, who I spoke with, or where I'm going. Mention one thing and people caustically remark that I'm the sole representative of the PNA ha ha, so tell me....What is the point?
Why do you think that many of us don't work, hard core, daily, get paid for and not paid for both, for change? How do you know I don't put in 12 hours a day 7 days a week and have done for years in promoting trade, medical relief, travel assistance, diplomatic relations, etc.?
The nerve of some people is astounding.
Write one message here and one doesn't do anything?
It's insulting.
Tanya
12/28 - It's got nothing to do with demonising. It has everything to do with stop yelling and screaming and blaming every one else for all, and I mean all, of Palestine's woes.
Some people there need to look in the mirror.
Bring up one tiny issue and all hell breaks lose. What does that say about people here?
Tanya
Some people there need to look in the mirror.
Bring up one tiny issue and all hell breaks lose. What does that say about people here?
Tanya
12/28 - How many so-called "militants" by Israeli standards were turned in or set-up to be assassinated by family, neighbors, etc? A sad situation indeed. However, if we are able to look at this and understand why it happens, we will be better able to strategize on how to end it--leadership on the ground there. I agree with Tanya, when we don't like looking at something we attack the messenger... not the message. I don't think Tanya wants to see the Palestinians wiped out or blames them for their problems, she's just discussing a point that we know exists on some levels. We tend to explain it away. We have to overcome our own demons before we overcome the ones out to get us. It's just a horrific time for Palestinians and it's hard to look at or hear what ills them because of the overwhelming force against them. It doesn't make one unhelpful or evil. It's an appropriate discussion for the list.
12/28 - Do we become like them... no way. I care about my people and their place in history and the world now. I want my children to see a free Palestine. I want them to visit their home there. Ours is a noble and I don't like it be tainted by violence and stereotypes that don't fit it. That's my opinion. I see your point, but I don't agree. I would not be proud of a history like the Israeli's. Saffiya
12/28 - Tanya knows NOT of the personal feelings of oppression and anger at
> having your family members killed by Israeli occupying forces, or
> knowing you can never return to your homeland, or knowing that the
> incredibly difficult life on the ground in Palestine is not going to
> change in their lifetimes;
Do you?
> having your family members killed by Israeli occupying forces, or
> knowing you can never return to your homeland, or knowing that the
> incredibly difficult life on the ground in Palestine is not going to
> change in their lifetimes;
Do you?
12/28 - zionist dribble............clearly transparent............r o n
12/28 - I hate to say this but I have heard some people say the same thing... they'd send their children to die. They say it, I believe, out of frustration....Those people are the exception... not the rule and maybe what was said or videoed was taken out of context--maybe not. The whole situation was brought about by the brutal occupation in my opinion. Also, religion has a lot to do with it too. Palestine is not Islamic only and I think those that have done a lot of the violence against innocents are Muslims on a mission from God. When in fact it is so against Islam to do such a thing to oneself and others.
100% correct Saffiya. Exactly.
Tanya
100% correct Saffiya. Exactly.
Tanya
Sad 12/28
12/28 - I remember when Laura Bush said that she doesn't feel sorry for Palestinian mothers that send their children to die, but I wonder how she feels about her husband sending other's mother's children to die in Iraq because he's on a mission from God fighting against "evil," armed with nothing but a bunch of lies. It makes me also wonder why the world singles out Muslims as fanatics, especially Palestinians who have been subjected to nothing but humiliation and brutality. Marlene
12/28 - as a non-palestinian and a sharp observer from the side lines. I noticed many non-palestinians better swerving palestine than some palestinians themselves. I will use name but both cases are found on this list. Horst
12/28 - There is absolutely no doubt that the violence of the past decade has undermined and harmed the Palestinian cause ... In Feb. 2004, settler Baruch Goldstein murdered 29 Muslims at prayer in al-Khalil (Hebron) ... the world was outraged at the attack and Israel was under pressure ... and then six weeks later, Hamas launched its own attack in response, a suicide bombing at a civilian target What Hamas did was "one-up" Goldstein ... they overshadowned the viciousness of his killing with the viciousness of their own ... More importantly, in my opinion, Hamas is an organization that has never been elected to represent anyone, let alone the Palestinians ... it makes its own decisions not for the good of the Palestinians for for the good of its own message, which is a religious message that is as anti-Christian as it is anti-Muslim ... Islam does not preach violence and neither does Christianity ... but both allow you to defend yourself when your life is directly threatened ... neither allows anyone to avenge anything, to seek revenge or to be driven by vengeance ... Those who kill in the name of any religion or murderers not martyrs. The problem is an issue of relativity ... Israel's Likud government is a government of terrorists and murderers mostly ... Hamas is an organization of terrorists and murderers, mostly. The Likud is clever about how it kills ... Hamas is not. It doesn't care about public opinion, Israel does. Yet, public opinion inn the world: created Israel undermined the Palestinians enslaves the Arab and Muslim worlds continues to deny Palestinian rights Violence has gotten us nothing except more suffering. Palestine is being slowly erased by the extremists in Israel (and I do not view Israelis as bad people at all ... I view politics as good or bad, leaders as good or bad, and view the public often as victims). You can only use violence so far to achieve goals: either you use it to win a conflict, or you use it to reposition yourself in a broader world context (Sun Tzu) ... you never use violence unless it produces a specific end result that benefits you. Under the Palestinian Revolution, violence was used to reinforce the Palestinian peoples' will to stand up to Israel rather than waiting for the Arab tyrants to do anything, and to redefine the Palestinian cause. We do exist. We do have rights. We cannot be ignored. Since we could not win a war with Israel, violence had reached its strategic maximum value. The next logical move was the move Arafat made in 1988 to enter into negotiations with Israel, which has won nearly every war it has fought right off the bat ... it can't be defeated militarily and it exists in conflict and is strongest in conflict ... it is weakest when it is cast as the aggressor ... as long as Hamas one-ups Israel with a form of violence that is "viewed by the world" as more immoral and more ghastly than anything else, suicide bombings -- and I agree with that assessment -- the pressure is off Israel ... So, I guess I should thank the suicide bombers and the murderers who sent these young people to kill themselves in order to kill innocent Israeli civilians who have never done anything to hurt Palestinians except be Jewish or Israeli, for helping Israel to build all those settlements the world now says Israel can keep ... Or, hasn't anyone been noticing what's been happening while we debate? Ray Hanania
12/28 - Sherri is a farsi name , persian name , famous by the 1001 nights tales. but who is Raja ??? Horst
12/28 - I don't think it's "the world" that's letting Israel
keep it's settlements as much as it's Ariel Sharon's sock
puppet, George Bush and the cadre of Zionist supporting Congressmen
who are doing it. If it wasn't for the US veto power at the UN,
I'm sure Israel would be back inside it's 1967 borders by now.
Yet US foreign aide to many has bought their silence, and in being
silent, it has lead to Israel being allowed to go it's merry way.
Hopefully, that will not be forever. Not the way it is going now.
Even the Jewish prophets speak out against what the Zionists are
doing, and God shall not be mocked.
Mik
keep it's settlements as much as it's Ariel Sharon's sock
puppet, George Bush and the cadre of Zionist supporting Congressmen
who are doing it. If it wasn't for the US veto power at the UN,
I'm sure Israel would be back inside it's 1967 borders by now.
Yet US foreign aide to many has bought their silence, and in being
silent, it has lead to Israel being allowed to go it's merry way.
Hopefully, that will not be forever. Not the way it is going now.
Even the Jewish prophets speak out against what the Zionists are
doing, and God shall not be mocked.
Mik
12/29 -On Friday, December 17 th , I posted on this list and others, the Hanan Ashrawi interview that was carried in the Dec. 17 th issue of the Israeli paper, Haaretz. At that time, I thought that people on this list as well as other lists would be interested to read the thoughts of Ashrawi and her comments.
Since then, I have seen the discussion on this list go from discussing this piece, to arguing against the Right of Return, to blaming and accusing the Palestinian leadership and Arafat for conspiring to prevent people from getting urgently needed medical treatment, to discussing suicide bombings and morality, to blaming Palestinian mothers and fathers for “breeding suicide bombers”…
In 11 days, we managed to inject many things that really had no thread whatsoever in my original posting of the Ashrawi interview. I posted the very same interview on other lists, BUT they didn't elicit the same byproducts that we ended up with!
I guess, I would have not been very active in this discussion ( I rarely get caught up in these things) if it were not for Tanya's post about medical treatment which accused the PA (Palestinian Authority) with preventing people from getting the medical help they needed!
The reason I came out swinging on this issue is because her baseless accusations and the topic hit VERY close to home…
In 2002, during Eid Aludha prayers at the Beit Hanina Mosque, my 65 years old uncle (although an American citizen, he moved back home in 1997) collapsed in the Mosque. My brother and other family members called for an Israeli Ambulance (since he lived in Beit Hanina, he was under direct Israeli control and jurisdiction because Beit Hanina is considered part of Jerusalem ). The Israeli ambulance REFUSED to come to the mosque to get him. The Israelis had erected a temporary checkpoint on the main road that connected Beit Hanina and Jerusalem for the Eid celebrations and to prevent people from crossing to the Old City and praying at Al-Aqsa.
Instead my brother and my cousins were instructed to take him to the nearest checkpoint in their own car and there, the Israeli ambulance would pick him up. After arriving at the checkpoint, they were held up for an additional 15 PRECIOUS minutes before they were allowed them to take him to the waiting Israeli ambulance, which was only about 20 meters away. In the meantime, he slipped in to a coma, which he never woke up from! The Israeli doctors who treated him at Haddassa kept asking why they had waited so long to get him emergency medical care! They told my mother, that her brother would have survived if in fact, they were able to treat him earlier or if he had the urgent attention that he needed when he fell…
After arriving at the hospital, the Israeli authorities then made my brother and cousins come up with 10,000 Shekels (about $2300) as up front payment for his treatment and made them sign papers stating that they would be responsible for all medical treatment he receives. He was in Hadassa for about 9 days before he died. He never did awake from his coma…
NOW, my 87 years old father in law is sick and needs an emergency procedure that they could not perform in Ramallah. After 2 weeks of delays and waiting, my sister in-laws were finally able to “smuggle him” into Jerusalem where he will be undergoing an operation on Thursday. The doctors have stated that he will have a 50/50 chance of survival because of the delay…Some of you who have been reading my writings know all about my father in-law. I posted a piece about him a while back titled “Hussein from Lifta”…
If my father in-law would have been caught in the car of his grandson, his grandson would have been fined and his car would have been confiscated for 30 days for the “offense” of transporting a person with a West Bank ID card in his “ Jerusalem licensed” car. It doesn't matter if he was transporting his mother, father, brother, or a total stranger; the fine would have been the same…
I did not write this to elicit anyone's sympathy, and to be frank, I really do not need or want it! I just thought that people on this list, might at least know where I was coming from…
Mike
12/29 - I think the major problem is that the focus has shifted from where it should be. Denial of medical care is well-documented and going back years before there was ever a suicide bombing (1994), as you can see from Physicians for Human Rights' second report below. The first report from PHR deals with the brutalities inflicted on the Palestinians for resisting the occupation with civil disturbances for which it was reported that Israeli soldiers and police participated in an" uncontrolled epidemic of violence" in the West Bank and Gaza Strip. Both reports can be ordered if anyone is interested. Marlene
Israel and occupied territories
The Casualties of Conflict: Medical Care and Human Rights in the West Bank and Gaza Strip
PHR was the first human rights group to enter Israel shortly after the intifada began. In early 1988, a PHR delegation visited hospitals, blood banks, clinics, and homes in Jerusalem, the West Bank, and the Gaza Strip to investigate the medical consequences of civil disturbances and police and military actions. These actions included systematic beatings and use of high-velocity live ammunition, tear gas, and rubber bullets. The team examined and interviewed 103 patients, most of whom had been wounded within the preceding 24 hours and had similar wound patterns. This landmark report details the team's medical findings and concludes that Israeli soldiers and police participated in an uncontrolled epidemic of violence in the West Bank and Gaza Strip.
"A dramatic survey of the physical and psychological damage deliberately inflicted on thousands of Palestinians."
The Washington Post
The Washington Post
March 30, 1988, 46 pages $6.00 CODE: ISRCOFC
Human Rights on Hold: A Report on Emergency Measures and Access to Health Care in the Occupied Territories 1990—1992
Since the beginning of the Palestinian intifada in December 1987, Israeli soldiers and security personnel have used excessive force, including beatings, indiscriminate shootings, and inappropriate use of toxic gas, against the nearly two million Palestinians who live in the West Bank and Gaza Strip. They have also curtailed access to health care by restricting the movement of health personnel, closing pharmacies and clinics, blocking ambulances, obstructing access to medical care for critically-ill patients, and forcibly entering medical facilities. PHR conducted two studies — one in July 1990 of 24 Palestinian families in refugee camps and villages, and one in May 1991 of 44 families — to survey the cumulative effects of these abuses. The report concludes by calling on the Israeli government to establish and implement clear policies of restraint on the use of force and to lift restrictions on health personnel and health institutions in the West Bank and Gaza.
June 1993, 91 pages ISBN 1-879707-09-8, $10.00 CODE: ISRHRO
12/29 - You are correct. I feel that the Moderators should establish just 5 objectives for this list to follow and if the postings do not conform to the objectives the posts should not be published. The recent article by the BBC that was posted regarding the Cold War has nothing to do with Palestine. As we know, the Zionist state in the Middle East is the only State that has WMDs. This should continue to be our focus in addition to the daily hardships of the Palestinian people, their absolute right to return to the 1967 and the 1948 borders.
12/29 - Tanya, I use the word "demonization" because it reflects what the media usually reports on the Palestinians and needs to be vigorously countered by placing the focus where it belongs. No, Palestinians are not perfect, but it is a lot to even function rationally when anyone would be subjected to such daily systematic violence, abuse and humiliation. I've been watching the news and horrible destruction and loss of lives caused by the Tsunami, an uncontrollable force of nature, but I could not help thinking about the Palestinians who have lost their homes by human hands, and the indifference to it. Marlene
12/29 - Mike, I thought you were coming from a fine place all along.
I heard some justifiably righteous indignation, and that's fine.
I've seen far too many articles about the jackels who claim to be
Jews and Israeli's not only allowing pregnant mothers to die giving
birth at these 'checkpoints' but tormenting them verbally while they
are dying in the process of giving birth.
I wish your father in law well as he faces surgery. May he come thru
it fine!!!
Mik
I heard some justifiably righteous indignation, and that's fine.
I've seen far too many articles about the jackels who claim to be
Jews and Israeli's not only allowing pregnant mothers to die giving
birth at these 'checkpoints' but tormenting them verbally while they
are dying in the process of giving birth.
I wish your father in law well as he faces surgery. May he come thru
it fine!!!
Mik
12/29 - ron harold has stated
a) palestinians are not on the wrong side of th law, and have not
volated the law. even those you refer to as "suicide bombers" are not
illegal.
b) every single solitary act of violence by palestinains is very much
lawful.
ron harold claims that the geneva convention allows these acts of
violence.
obviously he has not read this document.
while giving those under occupation the right to retaliate it also
imposes some restaints on those acts.
among them being no acts on those who are not involved in th4e
occuaption. as far as i know children are not under any circumstance
involved actively in any occupation.
so therefore the acts of violence against isreali children do indeed
violate the 4th geneva convention as well as the convention on the
rights of the child.
ron harolds remarks deliberately and with foresight deny israeli
children of their human rights. and yet not one post has contradicted
him on this point. so everyone who posted after these remarks and the
moderators who knew of these remarks also beleive that israeli
children have no human rights.
12/29 - I'm sorry, you're wrong. .......btw, no one wants to see Israeli or Palestinian children die. The Geneva Conventions clearly states the occupied may evict the occupiers ".......by any means necessary." I remind you Israel initiated war on the Palestinians with their unlawful occupation of Palestine - Israel kept war on Palestine, unlawfully occupying Palestine for over 36 years now, killing Palestinians with American weapons; and 36 years of war has been the result, with children dying on both sides......it's war, it's horrible, it's terrible, but that is what wars have always been. You're howling at the death of Israeli children, but forget this criminal Israeli occupation has killed more Palestinian children than Israeli children - each child is important, so when you cry for Israeli children, cry for the Palestinian children too. I see you're failing to adequately represent this issue: Why aren't you calling for Israel to comply with the 65 U.N. resolutions Israel has been in violation of for 36 years now? Why don't you recognize the need for Israel to comply with the U.N. resolutions ordering Israel out of Palestine? Wouldn't you think the burglar Israel should at least leave the home they broke into? Wouldn't that be the right thing to do? Wouldn't that be a good start? contextually yours, .r o n
a) palestinians are not on the wrong side of th law, and have not
volated the law. even those you refer to as "suicide bombers" are not
illegal.
b) every single solitary act of violence by palestinains is very much
lawful.
ron harold claims that the geneva convention allows these acts of
violence.
obviously he has not read this document.
while giving those under occupation the right to retaliate it also
imposes some restaints on those acts.
among them being no acts on those who are not involved in th4e
occuaption. as far as i know children are not under any circumstance
involved actively in any occupation.
so therefore the acts of violence against isreali children do indeed
violate the 4th geneva convention as well as the convention on the
rights of the child.
ron harolds remarks deliberately and with foresight deny israeli
children of their human rights. and yet not one post has contradicted
him on this point. so everyone who posted after these remarks and the
moderators who knew of these remarks also beleive that israeli
children have no human rights.
12/29 - I'm sorry, you're wrong. .......btw, no one wants to see Israeli or Palestinian children die. The Geneva Conventions clearly states the occupied may evict the occupiers ".......by any means necessary." I remind you Israel initiated war on the Palestinians with their unlawful occupation of Palestine - Israel kept war on Palestine, unlawfully occupying Palestine for over 36 years now, killing Palestinians with American weapons; and 36 years of war has been the result, with children dying on both sides......it's war, it's horrible, it's terrible, but that is what wars have always been. You're howling at the death of Israeli children, but forget this criminal Israeli occupation has killed more Palestinian children than Israeli children - each child is important, so when you cry for Israeli children, cry for the Palestinian children too. I see you're failing to adequately represent this issue: Why aren't you calling for Israel to comply with the 65 U.N. resolutions Israel has been in violation of for 36 years now? Why don't you recognize the need for Israel to comply with the U.N. resolutions ordering Israel out of Palestine? Wouldn't you think the burglar Israel should at least leave the home they broke into? Wouldn't that be the right thing to do? Wouldn't that be a good start? contextually yours, .r o n
12/30.....you don't see Israeli suicide bombers, because Israel has endless American-made weapons to kill with. Here's something for you to contemplate: If Israel didn't have the massive forces and weaponry Israel uses on Palestinians, if Israel didn't have an Air Force, a Navy, Special Forces, M1-A1 Abram tanks, Apache helicopters, nuclear bombs, cruise missiles, Patriot batterys, armored personnel carriers, and one of the world's best-trained forces, would Israeli citizens be lining up to commit suicide bombings on Palestinians? No, they wouldn't. Why? Because Israelis are more humane than Palestinians? No, because Israelis are not living under the incredible (and apparently unimaginable) personal oppression Palestinians have hopelessly lived under, during this 36-year long Israeli occupation of Palestine. Israelis have it too good in their own land to worry about becoming a suicide bomber for their country - they have paid professionals armed with massive American weaponry to do that. I know for me, it's hard to imagine the lifelong, generational oppression Palestinians have endured for decades now. I can't imagine being so despondent over my life and my family's life that I would send my own son to die for my country. It reminds me of Americans sending their own kids to die in Iraq. Americans are willing to send their kids to die, for their cause. Israelis send their kids to die for their cause. But don't let Palestinians send their kids to die for their cause, lest they be called subhuman. Who's committing suicide for their country? I told my friend that if her son joins the Army, that would be like committing suicide, considering how bad Bush and Cheney need fresh, warm bodies for their operations in Iraq. .r o n dallas, texas
12.30 - you are right ron. while nobody likes to see a child injured, or
even sick, if an isreali child gets hurt it is becuse their parents
who allow them to be placed in danger, living on stolen lands in
which the rightful owner wants returned. the isreali parents might
as well let their children play on the highway.
also mr. fearplay, your comments about the moderators on this list
are unfounded and inapropriate. any violence directed towards any
child is absolutley condemed on this list.
even sick, if an isreali child gets hurt it is becuse their parents
who allow them to be placed in danger, living on stolen lands in
which the rightful owner wants returned. the isreali parents might
as well let their children play on the highway.
also mr. fearplay, your comments about the moderators on this list
are unfounded and inapropriate. any violence directed towards any
child is absolutley condemed on this list.
12/30 - I think one of the great problems is that while Palestinians are being taught what the rule of law is, the fact remains that there is no rule of law that applies to the Palestinians that anyone is abiding by, either under the Fourth Geneva Convention or under the Universal Declaration of Human Rights, although Israel is a member of the international community. The only laws that exists are discriminatory laws that apply to Palestinians,and a separate law to illegal Israeli settlers, even though they live in the same territory. The fact is also that Palestinian children are denied any rights from the moment they enter this world, and sometimes one can say while they're still in utero because their mothers are oftentimes denied medical treatment which has led to some of their deaths. Palestinians are an unprotected people. They are not even protected from "civilian" settlers who have plenty of arms and have long engaged in violence and property damage against the Palestinian population while the army simply looks, if they're not busy committing their own violence.
12/30 - ron harold has twice made the statement in his posts that to kill
israeli chldren do not violate international human rights law.
not one person on this list or any of the moderators have siad that
this is wrong.
in other words israeli children do not have human rights and are
therefore not human.
as far as i am personaly concerned it is a racist statement . and
everybody and i do mean everybody agrees with it.
as to why do they do i do not know.
as to the wider issues that ron harold has in his own unique way
pointed out that i did not in any way make mention off.
i am well aware of the dire situation in the middle east. i have been
following the conflict in great detail since 2000. so do not preach
to me. your understanding of the 4th geneva convention is nill.
it clearly states that those who are not taking in any part in the
violence is not to be targetted. those who do so are in violation of
the 4th geneva convention.
i am agains the killing of children. all the children.
i want the violence to stop. all the violence.
i want peace for each and every country in the middle east.
the statement in his posts that to kill
israeli chldren do not violate international human rights law.
not one person on this list or any of the moderators have siad that
this is wrong.
in other words israeli children do not have human rights and are
therefore not human.
as far as i am personaly concerned it is a racist statement . and
everybody and i do mean everybody agrees with it.
as to why do they do i do not know.
as to the wider issues that ron harold has in his own unique way
pointed out that i did not in any way make mention off.
i am well aware of the dire situation in the middle east. i have been
following the conflict in great detail since 2000. so do not preach
to me. your understanding of the 4th geneva convention is nill.
it clearly states that those who are not taking in any part in the
violence is not to be targetted. those who do so are in violation of
the 4th geneva convention.
i am agains the killing of children. all the children.
i want the violence to stop. all the violence.
i want peace for each and every country in the middle east.
israeli chldren do not violate international human rights law.
not one person on this list or any of the moderators have siad that
this is wrong.
in other words israeli children do not have human rights and are
therefore not human.
as far as i am personaly concerned it is a racist statement . and
everybody and i do mean everybody agrees with it.
as to why do they do i do not know.
as to the wider issues that ron harold has in his own unique way
pointed out that i did not in any way make mention off.
i am well aware of the dire situation in the middle east. i have been
following the conflict in great detail since 2000. so do not preach
to me. your understanding of the 4th geneva convention is nill.
it clearly states that those who are not taking in any part in the
violence is not to be targetted. those who do so are in violation of
the 4th geneva convention.
i am agains the killing of children. all the children.
i want the violence to stop. all the violence.
i want peace for each and every country in the middle east.
the statement in his posts that to kill
israeli chldren do not violate international human rights law.
not one person on this list or any of the moderators have siad that
this is wrong.
in other words israeli children do not have human rights and are
therefore not human.
as far as i am personaly concerned it is a racist statement . and
everybody and i do mean everybody agrees with it.
as to why do they do i do not know.
as to the wider issues that ron harold has in his own unique way
pointed out that i did not in any way make mention off.
i am well aware of the dire situation in the middle east. i have been
following the conflict in great detail since 2000. so do not preach
to me. your understanding of the 4th geneva convention is nill.
it clearly states that those who are not taking in any part in the
violence is not to be targetted. those who do so are in violation of
the 4th geneva convention.
i am agains the killing of children. all the children.
i want the violence to stop. all the violence.
i want peace for each and every country in the middle east.
12/30 It is wrong that Children or humans die in any conflict. Although it is
working, it is inevitable that the children of the colonialist aggressors
may be targeted in retaliation for the occupation of a whole country and the
killing of many of its people--including children in numbers that are much
higher than the casualties on the Israelis side.
Let us keep things in perspective. Not doing so is not intellectually
honest.
Sami
working, it is inevitable that the children of the colonialist aggressors
may be targeted in retaliation for the occupation of a whole country and the
killing of many of its people--including children in numbers that are much
higher than the casualties on the Israelis side.
Let us keep things in perspective. Not doing so is not intellectually
honest.
Sami
12/30 I asked you a legitimate question and all you can do instead is try to play on our emotions.......typical..... ..pro-Zionist propaganda........you shouldn't even open your mouth about the law, considering your terrorist nation Israel is the criminal nation deluxe model. Your Israeli government is responsible for the deaths of those Israeli children - why? how? Because your Israeli government decided long ago, Israel's continued illegal occupation and oppression of Palestine and Palestinians is more important than the safety of their own children. In other words, Israel has done nothing to truly reduce the motivation of the suicide bomber. Your Israeli government owes a duty to their own children to protect them - and that means not breaking the law in severely and grossly violating the rights of your next-door neighbor. Since your government broke into the house of Palestine, why would you be surprised or cry foul when Palestinians fight back the burglars Israel? Because Israeli children are killed? If you bring your kids with you to a gunfight YOU STARTED, and your kids get killed........who's fault is that? Yours, that's who. You don't see it in that perspective - you speak from the point of view Israel has no culpability in the deaths of their own children. Israeli children didn't invade Palestine, but their Israeli government is responsible for their little deaths. sincerely, r o n
12/30 - Everytime I hear an American broadcaster or citizen say this, it ticks
me off:
"If the Palestinians would just stop the suicide bombings and attacks,
then maybe a responsible Palestinian leader can get back to the
negotiating table and negotiate."
That kind of western/zionist rhetoric makes me long for Arafat's
proclamations.
.......negotiate? Negotiate what? Why should the homeowner negotiate
with the burglar who has broke into his home and terrorized the
homeowner?
There's nothing for Palestinians to negotiate.
There's only the need for Israel to comply with the law.
There's your Peace Plan - follow the law, Israel!
.r o n
me off:
"If the Palestinians would just stop the suicide bombings and attacks,
then maybe a responsible Palestinian leader can get back to the
negotiating table and negotiate."
That kind of western/zionist rhetoric makes me long for Arafat's
proclamations.
.......negotiate? Negotiate what? Why should the homeowner negotiate
with the burglar who has broke into his home and terrorized the
homeowner?
There's nothing for Palestinians to negotiate.
There's only the need for Israel to comply with the law.
There's your Peace Plan - follow the law, Israel!
.r o n
12/31 -Your statement accusing Ron of "racist" remarks is totally misplaced here, and would apply to any other members of this forum who agree with him. Notwithstanding the law and how anyone wishes to interpret it, the actions of the Palestinians are against their brutal "occupiers," and not because anyone is singling out "Israelis" in particular, which means that the occupiers could be anyone. That is exactly what Ron is saying. I can only assume if you think this is racist, then you would have no choice but to concede that Israel's occupation which singles out the Palestinian identity for the worst form of collective humiliation, abuse and violence irrespective of whether there is any wrongdoing, which is applied through a dual set of laws, one for Israeli citizens and one for Palestinians residing in the same territory is indeed racist! Y ou would have to also concede that Israel's treatment and laws, or proposed laws that have actually come before the Knesset against its its own Palestinian Arab citizens, are also racist. Let's keep the "racism" card where it appropriately belongs. . Marlene
12/31 - Left out a very important word here. The actions of the Palestinians are not only against their "occupiers," but also against their " colonizer s", which makes it unlike other occupations, such as the German occupation of France or the British occupation of Palestine, whereas German and/or British subjects were not being brought into those countries to establish communities at the expense of the indigenous population by stealing their lands and destroying their homes based entirely on their ethnic or national identity. Marlene.
12/31 - Against my better judgment, I will add something here (After all the debacle with Tanya and the brouhaha that ensued whereby we were AGAIN distracted and divided I had decided to stop commenting on much of what is said on this list) …
Last year, I was one of the participants in a dialogue group that included American Jews/Zionists, Israeli Jews/Zionists, Palestinians, and Americans. We had former Israeli soldiers (turned peaceniks) as well as some very hard line Zionists among the Jews present.
When I brought up the issue of the Occupation and settlements, asking them about “the importance” of these settlements, the hard line American Zionist and his Israeli counterpart responded that they were “VITAL TO THE SECURITY OF THE STATE OF ISRAEL”! When I then inquired them to explain this to me, they responded that the settlements were MUCH more than just a place for Jews to live; they were in fact “THE FIRST LINE OF DEFENSE FOR THE STATE OF ISRAEL AGAINST THE ARABS”!
This exchange was brought about after the Zionist wanted us the Palestinians to “condemn, here and now the terrorist operation in the Hebron area settlement whereby a Palestinian fighter infiltrated a settlement and killed a Jewish family, including 2 children”…
After hearing their response to my question about settlements, I then asked them if indeed the settlements were “Israel's front line defenses against the Arab ”, then they would have to be categorized as military targets and NOT civilian. After all, the each settlement comes with its own armory and paramilitary and military guards and militia!
The waffled for a bit, but when I pressed the issue for them to either categorize the settlements as either ‘military bases” or ‘civilian population centers” (they have a problem with this because it goes against the Geneva Convention rules about moving your own civilian population into occupied territories), they relented and said that the settlements would be best described as “military”…
After hearing this, I pounced on them, accusing the Jewish settlers of “child cruelty” in the worst degree for moving their children to a war zone and then have them live in a “military area” thus exposing them to the inherent dangers of a war Zone…
Just my 2 “iqroosh” (the old Palestinian currency) worth… (As opposed to someone else's Shekels)
Mike
12/31 - I could add also that the military does not control the settlers nor their well-documented violence, but the settlers control the military. Just my masari's (money) worth. Marlene
Jan 2, 2005 - to introduce my self
i am michael . i live in australia. i have absolutely no ties with
israel or any jewish groups.
as stated i am against the violence.
i am against the deaths of ALL the children
i am against the wall.
i am for human rights being upheld for everyone.
i am currently going through the documents at the un web site.
very interesting reading . i highly recommend it.
i have been thrown off a pro-israeli site for arguing aginst the
murder of palestinian children.
i have been thrown of a pro-palestinian site for arguing against the
murder of israeli children.
but enough about me.
ron harold has done what other speakers have done. without knowing
one thing about and is against my statement that israeli children are
protected by human rights law he procedes to label me a pro-zionist.
also a jew who supports the israeli state/government by using such
phrases as "your terrorist nation" and "your isreali governement"
and calls the statement that israeli children are protected by human
rights lws/legislation as "pro-zionist propganda"
now the rest of the group are using the tired ideologoy that the
suicide bombers, who they hate and are against, are justified to
attack israeli children.
there is not one thing that justifies any attack against any child.
no doubt ron harold will call this "pro-zionist propaganda" as well.
according to marlene
israeli children are occupiers. more information.
i occupation is racist. i am against and have emailed sharon to stop
occupation and pull out of west bank and gaza strip.
she also states that there are laws passed to be enacted against the
arab population and she calls them racist. i am against racism
regardless. these racist laws should be replaced by non-racist laws.
the human rights committee of the un have been investigating israel
and these laws among other things. go and read the documents on the
un web site. which i know you have not done so.
ron harold question
i should call on israel to obey the 65 un resolutions.
i do so and i also call on the palestinains to honour their
obligations that they have entered into. including those un
resolutions which apply to them.
we are after peace in the middle east. we each have different ideas
on how this is to be achieved. but justice for all and human rights
i am michael . i live in australia. i have absolutely no ties with
israel or any jewish groups.
as stated i am against the violence.
i am against the deaths of ALL the children
i am against the wall.
i am for human rights being upheld for everyone.
i am currently going through the documents at the un web site.
very interesting reading . i highly recommend it.
i have been thrown off a pro-israeli site for arguing aginst the
murder of palestinian children.
i have been thrown of a pro-palestinian site for arguing against the
murder of israeli children.
but enough about me.
ron harold has done what other speakers have done. without knowing
one thing about and is against my statement that israeli children are
protected by human rights law he procedes to label me a pro-zionist.
also a jew who supports the israeli state/government by using such
phrases as "your terrorist nation" and "your isreali governement"
and calls the statement that israeli children are protected by human
rights lws/legislation as "pro-zionist propganda"
now the rest of the group are using the tired ideologoy that the
suicide bombers, who they hate and are against, are justified to
attack israeli children.
there is not one thing that justifies any attack against any child.
no doubt ron harold will call this "pro-zionist propaganda" as well.
according to marlene
israeli children are occupiers. more information.
i occupation is racist. i am against and have emailed sharon to stop
occupation and pull out of west bank and gaza strip.
she also states that there are laws passed to be enacted against the
arab population and she calls them racist. i am against racism
regardless. these racist laws should be replaced by non-racist laws.
the human rights committee of the un have been investigating israel
and these laws among other things. go and read the documents on the
un web site. which i know you have not done so.
ron harold question
i should call on israel to obey the 65 un resolutions.
i do so and i also call on the palestinains to honour their
obligations that they have entered into. including those un
resolutions which apply to them.
we are after peace in the middle east. we each have different ideas
on how this is to be achieved. but justice for all and human rights
being observed for all should be amongst those ideas. web site. which i know you have not done so.
ron harold question
i should call on israel to obey the 65 un resolutions.
i do so and i also call on the palestinains to honour their
obligations that they have entered into. including those un
resolutions which apply to them.
we are after peace in the middle east. we each have different ideas
on how this is to be achieved. but justice for all and human rights
being observed for all should be amongst those ideas.
ron harold question
i should call on israel to obey the 65 un resolutions.
i do so and i also call on the palestinains to honour their
obligations that they have entered into. including those un
resolutions which apply to them.
we are after peace in the middle east. we each have different ideas
on how this is to be achieved. but justice for all and human rights
being observed for all should be amongst those ideas.
Subscribe to:
Posts (Atom)
